Since the DT post asks for Engineer-related balance feedback:
So here’s some engineer feedback:
- As mentioned by @megashub above, leveling the engineer is kinda slow (hijacking this topic for a moment to say that leveling a herbalist is also ridiculously slow)
- Turrets and traps are too expensive and too weak against monsters
- The autoreplace feature puts hearthlings into dangerous situations because they go to the battlefield to replace a consumed trap or turret
- Moving a trap/turret that is being replaced is currently impossible. When a trap/turret is destroyed after it’s selected to be moved, the move command is cancelled
- The way turrets go poof is rather immersion breaking. I’d rather have the engineers craft ammo and reload the turrets with that instead of placing entirely new turrets
- Adding to the point above, traps/turrets should also have a “broken down” state that is salvaged by the engineer for some materials
- A range indicator would be nice when placing the turrets
- I saw this mentioned somewhere by someone, but I’ll say it for better visiblity: there needs to be an indicator on the engineer’s nameplate of the number of used turret/trap count
To be fair, I’m not a huge fan of the automated turrets. It kinda implies some really, really advanced technology, possibily even magic. I’d rather have the engineers craft turrets that need to be handled by hearthlings. Or at least have a magic themed class craft a reagent that is added to the turrets to make them automated by magic.
Traps on the other hand, are a wonderful addition. Unfortunately, they are kinda weak now, as they are spotted from miles away by kobolds. Aren’t they supposed to be hidden? A visual indication of the stun effect should also be added eventually.
The goggles are amazing! @Allie
That was all that came to my mind for now. I kinda want to write a fan-fic about an engineer right now, but time doesn’t allow. Beside, folks didn’t even have the time to read the latest one yet.
Thanks for the feedback! In the next build, the engineer will be able to refill ammo on turrets and fix used traps instead of them going poof after they run out of uses. Refilling ammo and repairing doors will give more xp than before. There will also be a quantity indicator that shows how many turrets/traps have been placed out of the maximum amount placeable in your town.
A range indicator is a great idea . We do plan to add effects/animations for the stuns. You bring up an interesting point about how the turrets imply a technology that could be potentially too advanced to make sense in their world. This is something we will continue to think about and make adjustments on.
I also noticed that you’re allowing more quantity based on an engineer’s level, instead of one per engineer. Is that correct?
Yup, they are listed in the perks if you look in an engineer’s character sheet. At level 1 an engineer can place 1 turret and 4 traps, at level 3: 2 turrets and 8 traps, and at max level 4 turrets and 12 traps. Adding more engineers to the town will also increase the quantity.
It would also be cool if the engineer could facilitate the other classes. Like making practice dummies for the soldiers, which would be a good way to train up new recruits when soldiers die later on and encounters are too tough for newbies. Not sure what they could make for teh other classes… maybe some sort of automated windmill/watermill device that could output a steady stream of low level items? like flour or thread? Also if the engineer has nothing else to do, he should assist regular workers and speed up building.
This class disappoints me heavily, there are so many awesome things that I could think of an engineer doing that are far more realistic and in compliance with the theme of the game than traps and living turrets that shoot food?
Turrets that DO NOT SHOOT FOOD (WHY DID YOU DO THIS!?!?!) and must be manned.
Barricades for Archers.
Doors with more HP
Support beams in mines.
I REALLY hope the SH team reconsiders this update, it has been my least favorite so far and is a massive waste of a class that could lead to some really cool (if not essential) content.
EDIT: SERIOUSLY PLEASE AT LEAST MAKE THE TURRETS SHOOT ROCKS OR SPIKED WOODEN STICKS.
As long as the scaffolding issue gets addressed before this goes stable I’ll be happy. I absolutely hate having to IB everything.
Repeating what has been said a little bit…
Please change it from turnips to rocks.
1 stone = like 4-9 rocks? Must be smoothed by mason or something.
Add a basket above the mechanism to show the amount of ammo the trap currently has, maybe even animate the rocks rolling or falling down into the turret barrel before shooting.
Have the turret make sense, string or leather strap to fling the ammo and include that in the recipe.
Turret should need repairs somewhat randomly, increase chance after X amount of shots fired.
Wood, String, Leather, metal, Stone
This should be an somewhat powerful castle wall mounted mechanism for medium range defense with decent accuracy but high reliability, doesn’t break down often.
I want scaffolding/building to work properly too; but realistically it’s going to take a lot of work and testing before that happens. I do not want this update to be held back for ages while that happens.
The current version (“develop-3023”) is more stable (even for building) than the current “stable” version; and there’s no reason (that I know of) why “Alpha 17” can’t be released now (or at least soon). Scaffolding/building can be improved after Alpha 17 is released.
In other words; it’d make more sense (to me) to release Alpha 17 now and then release Alpha 18 (with scaffolding/building improvements) in 2 weeks; and it makes much less sense (to me) to release Alpha 17 (with scaffolding/building improvements) in 2 weeks. You’re still waiting 2 weeks for scaffolding/building improvements; but everyone playing the “stable alpha” gets to enjoy things like engineers and the “tier 2 town” questy stuff sooner; and the developers get more feedback on changes sooner too.
I agree with the “shoot rocks and not turnips” (and a lot of things everyone else has been saying).
However I don’t agree with “turrets should be manned”. If you’re going to have manned turrets, then why bother with turrets at all? Just give the player the option to break an archer’s legs (so the archer can’t move around).
well manned turrets could be manned by otherwise useless workers during a fight
Would it be possible to make doors that are locked based on class? So only carpenters or footmen for example could pass through the door.
I like the engineer class
would really love to see the engineer make more with its hands for mechanical buildings like bridges/mills/conveyorbelts etc.
After watching the desktop Tuesday, I don’t think I’ll ever be getting an engineer.
A Varanus (pretty weak enemy) just walked up to 1 clamp trap and 2 critter traps and only took 3/8 th’s health damage. This is woeful amounts of damage considering the cost of the traps, even if the engineer could reset the traps without having to replace it, I can’t see traps defending your city against an ogre or some orcs.
so a clamp trap cost 1 steel ingot, 2 copper ingots and 1 iron ingot, and has a 1 time use that does 50 damage.
Compare to any weapon that you can create from those resources and you’ll find that it is a pointless and costly exercise placing traps.
Take a Bronze mace for instance, costs 2 copper ingots and has 14 damage, can be used an infinite number of times, plus a hearthling wielding it can move anywhere whilst the trap is stationary.
What I would like to see is that your hearthlings man the turret in town defense mode, instead of the turrets acting like they’re alive. And the engineer creates the ammo in reserves but the hearthling managing it goes and retrieves the ammo.
I like that idea as a replacement of the current attempts at balancing. When you activate town defence mode the closest hearthling would climb on the machine and be like a little extra archer.
They wouldn’t need to have a finite amount of uses because they can’t move anyway and there wouldn’t need to be a cap on the amount placed because they require a hearthling to be used.
Automated turrets are a great idea, once they’re tweaked of course.
I strongly dislike the idea of my workers having to run to a turret and jump on to fire it. Seems to defeat the purpose.
When would I ever want my weak workers running towards the enemy? Two high level kobold archer shots and poof, one worker down. Probably before they even make it to the turret.
People already don’t like losing hearthlings to poor ai judgement, let’s not make it worse.
I do agree the turnip turrets feel a bit weak, but has anyone tried the better turret? What about 4 of them?
I’m not sure about most of this now (specifically, the “engineers are too hard to level” part).
So far I’ve only terraformed a tiny part of the map (the equivalent of maybe a 50*50 area mined down to bedrock), and have a pair of level 6 engineers (that are also level 6 blacksmiths) plus a stockpile of 30 turrets.
My plan was to start with a temporary base in one corner of the map, terraform that area, then shift the temporary base to a different corner and terraform that, and so on. Then once all of the “too far from center” corners of the map are done (including a huge moat around the entire edge of the map at bedrock to drain lakes into) I’ll start thinking about building my fort in the middle of the map.
My target is to have a team of five level 6 engineers before I begin construction of my fort. Current progress indicates that I’m going to achieve the “5 engineers” goal before I’ve finished my first corner/temporary base.
Note: I hereby reserve the right to hack my user settings file and bump “max. citizens” up to 60, just so I can train an extra 10 engineers/miners, because, why not?