OSX VS Windows VS Linux

Before you get into reading this, I want everyone to understand that this is a thread for arguing and ranting. If you want to see our forum as a happy place with rainbows, this is the dark corner. Run while you still can.

If you are a person who is strictly devoted to a side of the fight and don’t see yourself ever changing your opinions toward something, please leave now. If we have any dogmatic arguments here, it will probably evolve to a big fight, and steve or geoffers will probably have to come and put out the fire.

I created this thread for a couple of reasons:

  • There was no thread like it.
  • I (And all the other ranter’s) need somewhere to duel it out.
  • It is a common argument, with no definite answer to be found.
  • To prevent off-topic battles on other threads.
  • Fun.

To be more specific, the argument can include opinions and thoughts toward any product or OS related to Windows(Microsoft)Macintosh(Apple)/Linux.

So to get the ball rolling, I shall produce the longest rant I have ever typed, addressing a number of my concerns. These concerns include but are not limited to:

  • Unjustified hatred of Windows 8.
  • My primary issues with Apple, and apple customers/users.

We will go in chronological order, so I will start with:

Unjustified Hatred of Windows 8.

I have had windows 8 since it came out. I picked up the deal that was offered till January 2013, that dropped the price of a Windows 7-8 upgrade to $40.00. Since I got the OS, I have had a grand total of 0 crashes, or incompatibility issues that were the fault of the OS. The OS never freezes, was fairly cheap (And still is considering the amount of work that went into it), and has excellent driver support. To make things simpler, I will compile a list of things I love about Windows 8.

  • It turns on/off in about 4 seconds. Need to look something up real quick? I can search something on google or PM someone on skype and shut the PC down in one minute flat.
  • Excellent driver support. Whenever I build a desktop and install Windows 8 on it, everything is compatable. With Windows 7 and below, I would occasionally have a bit of hardware that didn’t work with it.
  • Improved security. The new built in windows defender software has saved me on multiple occasions from forced encryption that wouldn’t have been caught on windows 7. (My job puts forced encrypting software on any of their devices to protect data).
  • The merge. I feel that on the desktop side of things, windows 8 does a nice job of merging a mobile OS with a stationary one. However, on a tablet, I haven’t heard the same thing, but that is Windows 8 RT, not Windows 8.
  • Picture passwords, you can make any photo that you can get ahold of into your password.
  • It’s Windows 7. At the end of the day, Windows 8 is just Windows 7 with some new bells and whistles, and a mobile OS slapped on top. The original OS that everyone loves is still there.

If you are one of the people who think that Windows 8 is the new Windows Vista. You are horribly mistaken. Vista was an OS that flat down didn’t work. I still have a Dell laptop with Vista on it collecting dust in my basement. It was poorly optimized, crashed often, had terrible compatibility issues, and had an endless list of errors. Windows 8 has none of these issues. If you want to hate on Windows 8 RT, then go ahead. We can hate on it together, but as for Windows 8 / Windows 8 Pro, I am going to need to hear some new arguments.

Now that I have blown off all my steam on that front, lets move onto the next issue.

My primary issues with Apple, and apple customers/users.

My first Apple product ever was the iPod touch 2nd Generation. I had known about Apple products previously, but never had any interest in them. The OS made me feel limited when put into comparison against a Windows platform, and generally was not cheap. But for some reason, the iPod made me kind of excited. It was one of the first things of it’s type, and had a sort of luster to it that made me unable to resist. Once I got the thing, I loved it. I spent countless hours playing apps like Modern Combat 2, and watching fun videos on iTunes and Youtube. It also served to be a great MP4 player for me. I dropped it plenty of times without a case, and it never cracked (it’s screen is still crack free to this date). It also had great battery life. But then one day, the iPod 3rd and 4th generation was born, and my feelings for apple were forever changed.

To start, everyone started buying them. When I had my 2nd gen, most people would ask me what the heck the thing in my hand was. But then I found myself at concerts where I could look up and see hundreds of the Apple devices being held up. It didn’t stop there though. At school, apple desktops where everywhere. You may argue that they were donated to most schools because Apple cares about american education. But anyone with a large enough brain can see that it is a marketing ploy. Kids will compare the top of the line Apple desktops to the cheap rented windows computers, and get the idea that anything running a Microsoft OS is the same as a cardboard box with lights and a case badge.

So, no big deal right? How is that any reason to grow incredibly filled with rage toward a company? It isn’t, but here is. First off, let me explain something about an old computer of mine. Back in the far away time of 1999, I purchased my first desktop with Windows 98. I had some good times with that thing, playing games like Runescape, Redneck Rampage, Sim City 2000, NHL 2000, etc. I could walk down to my basement right now, pick the old thing up, plug it in, and turn it on. Everything would work just as well as it did 14 years ago, and if I begged enough, I could get Microsoft to give me customer support for the thing if I needed it.

Now lets look at my iPod 2nd gen today. To start, if I try to watch videos on iTunes like I used to, it doesn’t work. I contacted Apple tech support on the issue to learn that “My product was discontinued, and the only way I could be helped is if I purchased a newer generation”. I spent 200 bucks on that thing, for a years use? I got no discount and was hung-up on twice before I finally contacted a manager. This guy told me the same thing I was told before, but was nice enough not to hang up, and no I was not raging or crying on the phone. I was just in shock.

Later on down the road, other things stopped working. Obviously apps no longer worked, the youtube app eventually broke too. Then my music player kept crashing, and the speakers were shot too. The battery life also fell off the cliff. So what was left? A piece of plastic. 200 bucks well wasted. You might say that the hardware had a limited lifespan, as practically all hardware does. But then, I tried something new. I swapped my iOS with an android OS. It was not easy to do, but I did it. Here is the interesting part. Everything started working again.

When I booted the thing up and saw that I could watch videos again, use apps, play music THROUGH THE SPEAKER, and keep the battery alive on a full charge for it’s previous life span, I was blown away. There is no way to explain how satisfied I was. But then came the realization that there was nothing wrong with Apples product. The problem was Apple. They had intentionally put some sort of update into my iPod that made the thing deteriorate. It is the only explanation I can think of, and so my hatred was born.

Further investigations found that Apple had been caught using not only slave labor, but child slave labor. Chinese children were found at multiple Apple manufacturing plants. These facilities often have come with armed guards, fences with chicken wire, and suicide nets to prevent workers from killing themselves. Now, do other companies have this stuff to? Probably. But with apple, we have proof. To continue supporting them after you know what they are doing, is extremely immoral in my opinion. But, not everyone knows about it. One of my favorite quotes ever is from the matrix, and states “Ignorance is bliss”.

Now my issues with their users and customers. The usual apple user is numb minded in my opinion. A few years ago, you could say that “There is no alternative product to an iPhone/Pad/Pod”. But now? There are tons of products that are cheaper, faster, stronger, more efficient, and just all around better than a lot of apple devices. Yet, despite all of these options, people will walk into a store. Pick up a 1000 dollar tablet, and buy it without giving a second glance at the other items on the shelf. As I have previously stated, I am big on saving money, and whenever I see someone I know with an iPad in their hand, I wince a little in pain.

As for the Apple OS on desktops and laptops, I have a big problem. That problem being the control that apple has over a computer running OSX. If apple decides one day that they don’t want you to be able to use google anymore, well looks like you are out of luck buddy, no more google for you. Disagree? They have done it before with Java, what is preventing them for doing it with anything else? Now if Microsoft decided that they didn’t want us to use google anymore, we can work around it. On a apple OS though? Good luck with that, you are going to need it. If you did somehow manage to do it, they would definitely take you to court.

So, that concludes the beginning of my argument. Make of it what you will, it shall always remain close to my heart. Especially now that I can just link people to it, and don’t need to verbally reproduce it time after time.

If you actually read the whole thing, kudos to you. You either just got a lot smarter, or a lot dumber. I say that because I didn’t proofread or spell-check anything I just typed.

Please give feedback or bring up your rant. Thats what the point of this is.


OK, so what about Linux?

Well, I didn’t say anything about Linux because I have yet to really delve into it. I have heard wonderful things about it though. The only time I have ever attempted to use it was when I booted Linux Ubuntu onto a thumb drive. Unfortunately, it usually crashed whenever I tried booting it up for the second time and beyond. But when it did work, it seemed very nice.

But at the end of the day, you can’t really go wrong with something that is free and open sourced now, can you?

I’m gonna have to agree with you.

Why does everyone hate Win8 so much? It really is, like you said, Win7 but with more stuff. In fact, I was one of the people scared of it. What got me was that I had no idea what it was actually like. I was forced into it when my laptop broke about a month ago and needed replacing. And let me say I love it. There’s the wonderful Desktop Mode button if you want it to be just like Win7. Which I use. It just has useful features on top. Why oh why everyone’s so against it is beyond me, even having been like that myself I still don’t get it.

As for Apple, I am a Windows man. I personally dislike Apple, but I’d be willing to see past it. I just think it’s overpriced. What I really dislike though, is its fan base. Not all, just the ignorant ones. I have no doubts that anyone commenting in this thread will be fine in my book. What I hate is all the people around me in school who say “Oh I don’t like my Blackberry anymore/it broke, I want an iPhone”, showing clearly no signs of actually caring what they get. I have an Samsung Galaxy S3 and love it. It is rated as a better phone to the iPhone 5, and if an individual had a different opinion then they’d at least acknowledge the competition of the S3. But these people wouldn’t know what an S3 is. And there’s a really surprisingly large number of them. For them, it’s an iPhone. And, for that matter, it’s an iPad too, even when the tablet world has a fairly sudden wealth of variety. Well, an iPad or a Kindle. Everyone seems to know about Kindles.

It’s either these who are so utterly clueless, or the ones who say Apple just is the best. I don’t mind if their argument’s reasoned and they’ve taken into account Microsoft/Android (depending on the platform the conversations involving) but they never do. Instead they say that Apple products are just better. If you asked them about good Samsung products for example, they couldn’t name one. It’s just…urgh. Apple get it so easy because of the mindlessness of their customers. It’s not really their fault. I do dislike how deliberately exclusive they make their products, forcing you to need everything Apple to work with each other. But the ignorant fans are my biggest irk.

p.s. all the experiences I draw on from here are from conversations with my friends. My broad assumptions may well not apply to you even if you are an Apple person, so don’t go taking offense :stuck_out_tongue:


rant all you want folks, but remember to keep the discussion civil… blatant antagonistic comments, or ugly commentary will get deleted, etc. etc.

you all know the drill… :wink:

edit: if anyone wants to flag those to be merged from the previous thread, feel free…


I did mention that[quote=“LordNevs, post:1, topic:3800”]
If we have any dogmatic arguments here, it will probably evolve to a big fight, and steve or geoffers will probably have to come and put out the fire.

Putting this here to fill the character limit

ah, very well… thank-you good sir… i blame my fully belly for the lack of a comprehensive read through…

Hoorah to that, I may need a trip to the hospital after that dinner.

Alright, here we go:

Impressive text wall, LordNevs


Windows 8

At first, when I picked up my laptop a few months ago (the first one that was solely mine, and no one else’s), a Lenovo Y500, it came preloaded with Windows 8. When I booted up my PC for the first time, I was genuinely scared of what the heck Microsoft had done to their beautiful, beautiful OS. However, a few days into it, I became very comfortable with it. I still don’t agree that it is the ideal OS for a desktop or laptop with no touchscreen capability, but it works very well, and, while it has taken some getting used to, I find that I may even like it more than Win7 at this point.

That’s my personal experience.


The only Apple product I have used consistently is the iPod Touch, and no other. I have, on several occasions, used a Macbook or iMac. For the most part, they work pretty well. Let it be known, however, that, as a Windows user, some of the things that it did confused me. For example, not being able to minimize windows (I have no idea why anyone would implement that anyway) confuses me greatly, and I don’t know how to fix it. I consider myself to be fairly good with computers, but I cannot figure out OSX. However, they have been known to have very good displays and graphical frills on their OSes and devices, and I agree with that stereotype. However, I also agree that there is no need, and no need AT ALL to buy a $1500 Macbook that has the same specs, if they are even as good as, a nice $800-1000 Windows-loaded PC. Basically, they want you to pay extra for a special case, and that’s it. I find no sense or reason in it, and that is why I don’t particularly find OSX very appealing, or Apple computers in general very appealing. You may as well buy a decent-er $600 PC and dual boot OSX on that. It would work just as well, and probably even has the same specs, in terms of CPU and maybe GPU as well.


Opinion pending.

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I left out a bit of my argument that I wanted to hit.

Also, lets get some apple people in here @Xavion @zorroman1100 @Crobo

Making enemies is fun, no?

My primary issues with Apple, and apple customers/users Part 2.

To be a bit more clear, I am talking about apple desktops in this chunk. Now, as someone who builds desktops, I think that I see computers a little differently than I used to. I used to see it as a piece of metal that is always slower than I want it to be, with a power button that makes it turn on when I press it. But now that I have an understanding on how things really work, and how big they can get. I see it as much more.

When I look at a computer, I immediately start to tear it apart in my mind (Especially if I am considering buying it, or a friend is). I look at how much room for improvement there is, what I can do to make it faster in the future, what it’s weaknesses and strong points are, and what it’s price tag is. So when I see this tiny little thing? A whole ton of negative thoughts come to mind. To start, lets look at the size. This is probably my biggest issue. Is this a tablet on a stick or a monitor? Because there is absolutly no way that you are going to upgrade that computers GPU. Or CPU, or RAM (In fact I think my RAM chips are thicker than that thing). Point is, unless you have the precision of a heart surgeon, there is no way you are going to do an upgrade.

OK, so maybe we won’t need to do an upgrade or won’t want to? Let’s look at the hardware of… the most expensive iMAC available ($2000). At 2000 bucks, you get a “Desktop” with practically the same level of hardware as my desktop. But here is the issue. My desktop cost me 700 dollars to build. Not 2000, and with the money I saved I got a monitor that was larger, and a higher resolution than the screen on the iMAC. Plus, my desktop has tons of room for upgrades if I feel that things are getting slow. I can swap out any part of my computer with extreme ease, whenever I want to. Just another example of how you are at the mercy of the manufacturer.

Now, to go more in depth on that price-tag, I did a bit of research. Before I tell you what I found, I do want to explain something. I understand that a company needs to make money. But there is a line that needs to be drawn somewhere. If you are making a 500 dollar profit on something, that is pushing it in my opinion. Anything beyond that is robbery. So, when I see that all of the components of an iMAC that costs 2000 dollars, add up to be about 600 dollars. I blow my top. A 1400 dollar profit is beyond ridiculous. It is insane. The fact that people buy them anyways makes me embarrassed to be a human.

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I feel so out of place in these forums.

A longtime Apple fan, I’m typing this with my new iPhone (which is apparently twice the speed of the Galaxy S3 by benchmark tests), where I used to type replies from my iPad or iMac. I use Windows 7 via BootCamp to run my games, but not much else. I don’t think I’ll be able to make my case to these people with such hatred for Apple. I’ve wasted enough of my breath (and currently finger-power) on this topic, and I think I’ve just given up on trying to make people change their views. Although I no longer have the energy, nor the desire to persuade people to switch to Apple, I will always remain loyal to the company.

P.S. I know what you guys mean by people that just walk in and walk out with a new device without even researching or looking at what’s best. I’m not one of those people, and if anyone ever asks me why I chose iOS instead of Android, for example, I can back myself up (one reason is that Apple checks their apps for viruses before they are released on to the App Store, whereas Google does not bother to check whether Google Play apps are plagued by identity theft, and hardware numbing viruses).

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I was planning on reading the entire thread before making some eloquent response. Then I saw this:

And it triggered something. I hear this more often and I allways wonder why people say that. What did Apple do for you to deserver this unconditional eternal loyalty? Do you have a blood-bond?

If they ever change (and I think they have) would you truly stay loyal, no matter what? And if so, why?


Well, I just tried out Ubuntu (A Linux Distro) at a friend’s house, and here my, rather short, opinion.

Linux is OK. It’s not spectacular, but it’s usable. The GUI is OK. The customizability and stability are pretty good, but the user-friendliness could use some work. In short, Linux is pretty good, but not the greatest piece of software ever made.


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Yay, kudo’s to me, thanks!

And now onto my own opinion, so here’s another wall of text.

Having worked with / on / in computers since the early 1980’s I have worked with a fair share of different systems. From the early IBM PC and the Mac ][ via Linux servers and workstations to moderns PCs, Macs and tablets. The only thing I have very little experience with, is Android, I sometimes help my mother out with het Android phone, but that’s it for me. This is not an active choice, I just never got around to using Android. I do have experience with Windows and OSX, and Windows Phone/RT and iOS. Both as a user and as a developer.

With this background in mind I think I can understand a lot of the users that have actually thought about why they use a system. I think there are roughly three categories:


Keywords: free and open
Users: I think most Linux users choose a a Linux-like system because they can, and because you have the most controle over anything you do. Everything is open and adaptable. It can be quite hard to get everything right though.
Some users will use Linux because it is free and they cannot (or don’t want to) pay for another OS.

Personally I think Linux is an OS that is not quite finished or polished enough. While it may work for lots of people, I cannot be productive enough on a Linux system, so for me it doesn’t work.

I have used it successfully in the past, but nowadays there are a lot of better options.

OS X / iOS

Keywords: simple, bling and locked-down
Users: I think many users choose Apple products because they ‘just want them to work’ without spending a lot of time on configuration and upgrades. They don’t want to upgrade RAM or an HDD. If this is what a user truly wants or needs, that should be fine as these users are typically prepared to pay a premium for this extra layer of convenience.

This is probably also the reason Apple products are designed to be hard to upgrade. I own a Mac Mini and an old MacBook. On both I have upgrad the RAM and HDDs (to SSDs :smile:), but that’s about as far as you can go. The newer models are - like @LordNevs mentioned - so thin that upgrading is just not possible. And on many other models the CPU and GPU are soldered onto the mainboard.

This is where one problem with Apple products arises. In my opinion Apple targets wealthy users that rather pay more for a simple product. While Apple products are often ridiculously expensive, for the intended market that wouldn’t be a problem. What I see around me however, is that everybody and their dog wants an iProduct because it is so cool. This is an issue because these people need to go with the flow and swap their old products out for new ones much sooner then their budget allows. I think - much like the Blackberry - Apple products have found their way to an unintended market.

Personally I don’t like OS X as a user. I use it for work (developing iOS Apps for paying customers) and I just cannot get used to it. Coming from a Windows world everyting seems to be the wrong way around. Also the OS feels cluttered and chaotic to me. There’s no tiling windows side by side, and the ever visible desktop just messes with my OCD :frowning:


Keywords: middle-ground
And then there’s windows. To me it is the middle ground of everything. It is not as ugly as most Linux systems (some are OK), it is not as slick-looking as OSX, but it is mostly functional, and that’s very important to me. I can get some actual work done (when I’m not building walls of text on a certain discourse ;-))

While not as open as Linux, it is also not as closed as OS X, although the RT variant is pretty closed.

When it comes to hardware Windows also provides a nice balance. You can build a dirt cheap PC and have it run great, or you can buy an enterprise class workstation for big bucks and have it run great. Whatever suits your need (or hobby). I always build my own desktop machines because it is fun to do, and because it is cost effective. My laptops however are something else. My latest one is an Alienware machine which puts me in the class of Apple users. The machine is quite expensive and a part of the money simply goes to looks. What works for me though, is the physical design of the machine. Its cooling is awesome, and its upgradability is great. Except for the mainboard almost everything else can (and will) be upgraded!

Bottom line

For me both Linux and OS X just don’t make me feel ‘at home’, and Windows does.


I’ll start by tackling price then as that’s the issue most raised. Firstly OS X actually is free (since 10.9) despite what you may think, it’s just a matter of opening up the app store and getting the new version for users of an older version. I’m sure there is other ways as well but that’s the main one since otherwise it came with the computer or your computer is a decrepit piece of junk. It is however hardware locked to apple products, of course the might of google means a basic search of “hackintosh mavericks” turns up instructions that may be of questionable legality, it might require effort for drivers as well but that’s not their fault you’re using their software for stuff they didn’t intend to be used for.

Now for your price issues @LordNevs of it costing $600 in parts and $2000 to buy. I tried googling to for the total cost of parts and it put it more like $1100 - it would be more if you wanted it to run windows but luckily mac and linux are free - that’s before accounting for how much assembly, the insurance, applications, marketing and shipping add to the value. Even assuming your $600 is correct for hardware you’ve still got to add at least $2-300 for the other stuff giving a profit rate of around 50-55% as opposed to the 70% you were claiming. 70% isn’t even that high compared to “essentials”, in fact it’s lower than most, go compare to the profit margins on things like food, clothes, petrol or the like, 70% is on the low end for a lot of those, the really extreme things can hit 90% or even higher.

Of course if you account for resale value it should drop by at least 50%, you should be able to average $1-200 a year in costs. That’s not bad at all in my opinion and certainly not much worse than other computers. There’s other issues with arguments but it’s late now and I can make them in the morning, remember though that the primary purpose of a computer is not it’s only purpose, just because I got a computer for a reason other than gaming it doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t play games and that developers should support it less, most people don’t get a computer specifically for gaming intent.

Rolls Sleeves Up :angry:
Let’s have a go at this, shall we?


If you glide your eyes across the GUIs of each of the Microsoft Products shown above, you should notice a similarity. This was amazing in my eyes - why?, because they all have a common design language (look very similar). And we know that this means once we adapt to the GUIs of one of these products - we should be able to use the others with barely any learning curve. Another thing amazing is that let’s assume all of these devices are on the same wi-fi network and are all configured to work with each other. I could literally pick of the tablet, go to a media app and then choose to play the media on my Xbox connected TV. I could even use the tablet as a second monitor for my desktop. Awesome, right? Well thats just the beginning. Take a look at this video:

I think you get the point now, all of the current generation Windows products (running 8.1, Phone, RT, and 8.1 optimized for Xbox) are all built to seamlessly work with each other with barely any configuration. Now on to my next point.

I believe the text at the top right of the the image says “Start”, if I’m not mistaken, and I believe (in Windows 8.1) if I go to the desktop and click on the windows icon in the lower left corner it will take me to this screen - instead of the cheap box that would come up in previous versions. Why is that?, because the colorful, customizable, jazzy new interface is essentially THE START MENU! I’ve gotten sick of people hating on Windows 8 because of this awesome new start menu. Its built for personilization which means that I can essentially customize this screen however I like, unlike the cheap box that came up before! (Most of my rage goes to the Windows 8 haters, not necessarily anyone here :wink:). These changes along with some polishing on performance (4 second shut-down? WOW!) are apart of (what I believe) is the most awesome OS on the market at this point in time. I’ve grown up with windows, I’m used to it and probably more biased towards it, but I have a good amount of evidence. This new generation of Windows are all built hand-in-hand to work with each other. They are also faster, provide more security, and are getting new apps everyday. If I watch people like the Verge or C-net do a review of an MS product - they almost completely trash the item - with no good evidence. I recently saw them compare the new Surface 2 with a computer - and was OUTRAGED :anger: - You’re comparing a TABLET to a COMPUTER… HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MINDS!?, but then I watched them review an iPad (with pretty much no difference from the one that came out last year), and they treated that heap of junk like baby. They praised the downsides of the item as well. But this time - they didn’t compare the cheap thing to a computer… why is that? Probably cause Apple is paying them something (<- Speculation), or they are just some one-way minded fanboys who don’t realize how bad they are getting played. I’m tired of all the Apple “religion” where anything made by Apple is so “holy” and epic. When they are barely upgrading anything from the last one - and locking the devices up even more… and some people have the nerve to be outraged at a quite reasonable DRM attempt with the Xbox One, but don’t realize how much Apple is conning them as well. I do have to admit not everything Microsoft has done has been so “awesome”, but Microsoft takes the time to listen to consumer complaints and fix the problems. For example Windows Vista to Windows 7, Xbox DRM, to no DRM, Windows 8 to Windows 8.1 (which fixed most of the consumer complaints). And I can think back to the time Windows 8 came out, and people were downloading all of this software that had not even been optimized for the new OS yet, and complaining that it didn’t work, and I could only imagine the idocity that were in those people’s heads.

I reached the limit of text… So it cut me off. It was like 2 pages long. xD - I don’t feel like re-typing everything though. I’m sure I made my point clear.

I don’t have a problem with iOS. In fact, I mostly prefer iOS to other mobile OSes. However, that was not the topic of this discussion.

I’m not a diehard Windows fan or anything, but it has remained the most functional, usable, and customizable OS on the market. (I mean that as all of them, together, would “score higher”. I know that Linux is more customizalbe.)

The thing that really kills Apple computers for me, though, is the sheer overpricing of it. I can’t stand the fact that they basically want another $X00 dollars (where X is an integer) for a “super special case”. That’s essentially what it is - paying for the brand, not the stuff. In a way, it reminds me of Beats.

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That’s true, Beats alongside Apple PCs are pretty over-rated.