Is This It For Stonehearth's Features?

To be specific she said “sprint towards completing MAIN engine features”

No, no ya don’t and it’s been longer than a min. :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s your delivery. Let ME be That Guy for a min and say your post was basically “They’re done, they’re passing the buck to modders, and here we go again with a content drought this game is a failure.” A disclaimer isn’t an excuse. It’s one thing to ask out of confusion or curiosity, quite another when you’re looking for excuses to be That Guy. See how it comes across when we’re being That Guy?

Disclaimer

Keepin’ it real.

I’m pretty sure I recall this as well. Also they already said this wasn’t supposed to be an empire builder so there goes multiple colonies/cities (unless you count the feature where you can take some of your hearthlings from a previous town to start a new one). Not everything that was discussed over the past year was the gospel. Some of them were case studies that didn’t pan out or led to other features.

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I’ve re-read both your posts and Max’s post, and I think I know where the confusion is coming from:

These are things that might not immediately be obvious if you haven’t spent a while digging through game code. Right this second, I could, in fact, write a mod that gives us an infinitely-sized world. The maximum size of the world is just three numbers, max X,Y,Z coordinates. Change that and you have an infinite world. Problem is, of course, you’ll need infinite (and infinitely fast) memory, but that’s details.

BUT the fact that I can write this mod should clue you in that these are not closed-off features. There is basically nothing that’s closed off, that’s the beauty of Stonehearth and that’s why I fight tooth and nail against what I call closing off code – which is, rewriting it in compiled C++. This makes it possible, but difficult, to interact with, but impossible to modify.

Let me list a few things that I consider to be game content:

  • Titans
  • Building editor
  • In-game use of water
  • WATER ITSELF (that’s right, water is not part a part of the game core engine, it is a terrifying Lua file over a thousand lines long)
  • Town events
  • Weather

These are all things that are still coming, and there has been no word that they will be stopped.

Here’s what I consider to be game engine features, which is what is being touted as being finished right now:

  • Multiplayer (the code to send info from one computer to another, NOT its implementation, NOT how the game deals with multiple players)
  • Rendering (how fast the graphical components render, NOT the graphical components themselves, NOT even the whole “cubic” style!!!)
  • Sounds
  • Capturing keystrokes and mouse events and sending them to the game Lua files to have an effect on the game

The confusion appears to be that there are certain parts of the game that are not part of what I call the “engine”, because they are written in uncompiled Lua code, but Radiant refers to as the engine:

  • Task scheduler
  • Hearthling / entity AI
  • Water (once again, it’s in Lua, so it’s freely modifiable and not at all locked in, but Radiant calls it part of their entine)
  • Combat
  • Building editor

Radiant is saying that these specific parts are mostly feature complete. And I have to agree with them, having seen the code, it’s very easy to use their current API and extend it in whatever way you want. Are they perfectly performant? No, perhaps not. That’s what they want to fix next. Regarding building specifically, you’re right that we don’t have a good building editor yet, but I mean… they spent like 6 months working on the one on the super-unstable branch. I highly doubt they’re gonna go, “you know what, guys? Why don’t you use the old crappy editor, we’ve kinda had enough of working on this one, so we’ll just release everything as is.” I’m sure that will get finished.

The point is, there’s a certain way right now how the AI works, how you specify tasks, how you get H’lings to do stuff you want them to do, etc. Radiant is saying this isn’t gonna change. They are saying this to coincide with Steam workshop integration, because part of why they said it was to encourage mod makers to use that API. They’re telling us, “guys, we’re not gonna break the MAJOR pieces of your mods anymore, so here’s a guide, here’s a mod workshop, we want y’all to start going wild”. The functioning inside the API might change, they might make it prettier or easier to work with or more performant. But the API itself won’t.

Again, you list some pretty awesome features @SirAstrix, and I definitely agree with you that they are sorely missing from the main game. However, this game has been in development for four years longer at this point than planned. I’ve been supporting this game because I love coding, and I honestly wouldn’t mind giving it a spin myself, to try and make some sort of a multi-settlement multi-player integration. The engine is going to allow us to do that, because Radiant wrote code to send data from one computer to another. I, and modders far better than I, can handle the responsibility of writing content that will create and consume that data in interesting ways.

Nope. Yours is one of a hundred voices of positivity, @SirAstrix’s is one of like 5 who are quick to vocally criticize either the game or its direction. We absolutely need Those Guys, because the yes-manning going on here can easily lead us to nodding to something real bad. I defend Radiant right now because I feel I understand them. I have very much criticized them or their decisions in the past. I’d ask you to be cognizant of the reality of most people’s attitude on this forum, and understand the value of unfiltered but respectful criticism.

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Oh I totally understand. I am cognizant of the attitude of this forum, it’s quite pleasant. :merry: I also understand the value of criticism, but there’s a difference between that and just throwin’ salt for the sake of it. That comes across in delivery. :wink: Just like I understand those hundred of voices of positivity are what keeps the game alive and well.

Oh, and the devs are also aware of yes-manning, Chris himself has brought it up during a stream. Something along the lines of “Well you’re all agreeing, but you’re all the nice people who like stuff so I have to modulate your opinions.” It only leads to a bad place if they were ignorant that it existed or decided to take advantage of it. Give the devs some credit for bein’ aware and having integrity.

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You’re correct. My using that as an example was on two fronts though.

  1. It’s something that was scrapped that some of us wanted. For a single player, it pulls the focus away from the town. But on a multiplayer level, I personally think it’d be amazing to let people find the perfect place for their town and together create a country side.

  2. It’s something that would require the engine supporting it. If we could code it ourselves into the LUA, I feel someone, especially @BrunoSupremo, would have figured it out and released a mod that does it.


You of all people should know I don’t need an excuse to be an asshat on here after last year. On top of that, I’ve never called the game a failure. I’ve argued that it doesn’t keep with the Kickstarter that many of us backed, but it’s not a failure with how many hours I’ve already sank into it as well as the sandbox it creates for modders.

On top of that, YES, I am worried that they’re coming to a head on this game and passing the puck to the modders to finish it like so many other games have done recently. From what I gathered from the DT, they could call A24 the first Beta (B01) if they wanted to as that’s the direction we have to look forward to.

So if you want to just dismiss what I have to say and how I feel, when I’m trying to understand why this is happening, all because I’m an asshole, then I’ll tell you the same thing I was told last year, and to find another area to discuss your thoughts. Sorry (not sorry) I’m not as optimistic as everyone else here.

Yet in the very beginning it was, and even though the current direction has scrapped that, I’m sure I’m not alone in that some of us would want that, especially for multiplayer.


And I really appreciate you clarifying this. It removes some of my worry / disconcert. It still doesn’t remove the feeling that the game is being lead to a direction that it needs to be finished by the modders, but it makes me worry less about the end of the game.

And I’ve been here for a lot of the ride, last 3 years of it min and was a backer before that. At the same time, When RIOT bought the game 2 years ago (and one of those years was stagnant) plus them moving some developers over to help the game, I feel that should have breathed more life into the game, and we’re seeing the opposite. So when someone (no one specific) tries to use the excuse of how long it’s been in development, I can’t see that as a valid excuse.


I must have missed this, and would love to know what stream it was in. As sadistic as it is to say, the fact they acknowledge the Yes-manning warms my heart a little…but only a little.

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At least you’re aware, you’re purposely behaving that way…choices. You can’t cry about bein’ dismissed when you come at it like that.

I didn’t dismiss what you had to say, I was merely pointing out that your delivery could make some believe that’s what you were saying. I could understand your confusion though, that’s what being That Guy looks like from the other side. :wink:

Yes and we’ve been over this already. So…your point? It was discussed shot down and you’ve had quite a long time to get over it. :skull_and_crossbones::horse:

And now you really are showing your true colors. They’ve accomplished a lot with the new folks on board. Heck most of the content we’re currently experiencing is with their help.

Here ya go Stonehearth Dev Stream 268 : Chris Continues to Conquer Building @SirAstrix It’s around the 56 minute mark, didn’t mean to make ya watch the whole thing lol.

Edit: Just for clarity, enjoying the positive nature of this forum has nothing to do with being optimistic. I’m very much not in real life, but that doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy the pleasant vibe this place gives off since the rest of the net is a festering hole. Being nice is actually work for some people. That doesn’t mean I’m being fake or disingenuous, just that I understand I could contribute positively instead of letting my poor attitude spoil someone else’s day. That day is obviously not today lol.

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I am right by your side on this one SA… The only hope i have, is that another SH kinda game comes along in the future and that the developers of that game hold that vision.

I was really thrown down when the statement about multiplayer, being what its going to be, came. Now i just enjoy it as a singleplayergame and then the social part/community builder is focused on this forum…

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Awww now that ya mention it, I recall that thread. I was sad to see it dampened your spirits about the game. I did actually love the idea of it being something like visiting other players towns across the world, but alas that wasn’t what they had in mind. I’m holding out hope for World of Stonehearth myself. I’d be happy to buy a parcel of land and set up shop in a city. I think Civ attempted a multiplayer game like that, it didn’t end well though.

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No point posting here any more

Woah. Respect, man.

Speaking of @SirAstrix, I don’t think he wants to be That Guy this much. The reality of Early Access, however, makes it hard to believe in any dev team. Few games make it to release, even fewer manage to deliver on what was promised. So while I have faith in Radiant, I can’t shake the fear of SH going the same way many other projects went, cutting corners and turning it into a “do-it-yourself” kind of game. I’ve had this concern for years, I’ve seen it to be well-grounded time and again when I watched other games. Statistics tends to do nasty things to your faith.
So yeah, while I hope SirAstrix’s concerns to be wrong, I guess I can say I share them.

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Even if it ends up being a Do It Yourself game (which I very much hope it doesn’t), what can we, as fans of the game, do about it? Yell loudly? Vote with our wallets? I mean, I feel like we’ve already done both things. At the end of the day, Radiant has a vision and a budget, and they’re acting according to those two things. Yeah, I have my own vision of the game, for sure, which is why my platform is “keep everything open and do the hard math stuff so I can do the fun game stuff”. But I don’t have a budget. Radiant’s gotta make do with what they have. That’s all I meant when I brought up the “4 years overdue” bit, I didn’t intend to use that as an excuse. It was more like, it’s already 4 years late, it doesn’t have another 4 years, so they will wrap up all the most important things in the time they do have.

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That’s fair, but I can’t hold what other devs have done against them. Heck in some cases, I applauded the devs for givin’ their communities the :fu: and jumping ship. Their player base couldn’t manage their personal expectations in a mature manor, and that’s what they got. I realize there have been cases where devs were just shady. One of the games I kept an eye on enabled safe zones for folks that wanted to concentrate on PvE as opposed to PvP. Great! Exactly what I was waiting for, I purchased the EA game, and then a few months later they got rid of that feature. I didn’t hang around the forums bein’ salty, I didn’t swear off EA games, I just stopped playing. I wasn’t gonna go on and on about how robbed I was, it’s a friggin’ game not world peace. If something upsets you that much, step away. There’s bein’ passionate and then there’s just bein’ an edgelord. If you know something is going to set you off and you keep coming back to it to just pick at scabs then that’s not the dev’s fault. That’s a personal issue.

I hope you’re right and that he truly doesn’t mean to be That Guy that much, if for no other reason than it can’t be healthy.

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No point posting here any more

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Seriously dude, just stop. I get it, I pissed in your cheerios somewhere down the line and it’s now your life’s goal to make sure people know I’m an asshole. Go find another thread to try and end.

I brought up my feelings on the latest DT as we’ve been told to do. Everyone knows I’m the first to voice my opinion when I don’t like something. At the same time, I’ve also said when I do like things. Problem is that when I do agree, it gets mixed into the sea of yes-men. When I don’t, I stick out like a sore thumb, and am told to leave in some way. But if everyone just agreed to agree for the sake of unicorns and rainbows, this game would be shipped as is and have to be loved or else.

Through this thread, my concern about the continuation of this game has been relieve some, THROUGH DECENT DISCUSSION. Not all of it, but most of it, thanks to @Moai. If I were to just leave because I’m vexed by something, then I’m another disgruntled player that may or may not trash talk the game. Not to mention, when would @MelOzone or @Fornjotr stated how they feel?

And what if by us saying how we feel, all of a sudden the game is made that much better by it? You’ve already stated that Chris made the remark that he has to take what people think here with a grain of salt, but by myself and those 5 others saying how we feel and explaining it, honestly I would think that would be better feedback than everyone being happy all the time.

So please, go find someone else to constantly insult and criticize. I would like this discussion continue so that myself and others can feel better about the direction the game is going.

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Please calm down folks. I like both of you, and it hurts me to see you exchanging blows over personality differences.

And I am grateful for that.
Speaking of which, I myself am often frowned upon in real life, with others saying I’m too pessimistic and I notice only bad things and look for excuses to trash-talk things and… how did they phrase it… “seeking Great Justice at every corner” and “demanding it to be done in full this instant”.
While it isn’t entirely true, sometimes I feel like I’m filtering out the good things and focus on what’s wrong. I tend to justify myself by thinking that there will be lots of positive feedback anyway.
On the other hand, being a doubtful person, I know how discouraging a critic bomb can be, so I try to spice my feedback up with noticing some good things.

What I am trying to say, you have no reason to fight. Both of you have passion about this game. If that passion takes form in different ways for each of you, that doesn’t mean you are mortal enemies.

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Stops putting together the thunderdome…

Awwwww… fine.

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I enjoy superhero movies as much as the guy next door, you know.
Well, maybe not that much…

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If you’ll give me a moment to step aside from dates and pragmatics and talk abstract philosophy, I’ve been thinking about this for a while. Like, five years next month. :wink: The #1 question people asked us during the Kickstarter itself is “how do I know you’ll actually finish this game?” As the person who answered all that Kickstarter mail, I had one answer then, which is “I can’t tell you for sure because I don’t have a crystal ball but we have every intention of finishing it. But is that helpful for you? Well, maybe not, because you don’t know how good we are at achieving our intentions. So in that case, pledge if you want to take the risk that doing so will enable this thing to succeed in some way, or wait and pledge when you think it’s worth $25. Either is good; make the choice that works for you.”

Ever since we missed the date in 2014, though, I’ve been wondering the corollary: “Ok, well, what does finished mean? When is a game complete?” “How do you know?” One easy answer is “it’s done when it’s got everything you wanted to put in it” but what if what everyone wants changes or what if you discover new things as you build or what if you can’t actually build what you intended by the time you intended? So I started asking industry professionals who’d been there before and you’d think there would be as many answers as there are games, but all the answers I’ve ever gotten back essentially boil down to: “Games are never done. They’re just shipped.” This is usually accompanied by a poignantly rueful “you’ve either been there or you don’t know” sort of smile which I assume is accompanied by an internal montage with epic music that only they can hear. Anyway. The fact that “games are never done, but just shipped” seems especially true of people who have worked in a simulation space, where an infinite amount of things can be added to enhance a simulation, but it’s also true of pple working in narrative games or platformers: creators always have the one or two or ten or fifty more things they want to add.

So time for some truths, then: At some point, development on all games (except dwarf fortress, maybe) must end. At this point, ownership of those games passes from their dev teams to the people who play them and mod them, and in whose minds and imaginations these games live on.

This is going to happen to Stonehearth, and though I don’t have a hard date for you, it is by definition going to happen at a point when some, but not all of the things we each wanted and hoped, will have been implemented. The question then is, what then? How will I feel about it, and how will I react and what will I do?

Personally, what I see is that of the infinite possibilities that Stonehearth could have been, it has coalesced into a community builder with an emphasis on creative 3D building and with an option to play alongside a friend; a game in which a small band of people create a settlement together to hold back the wilderness. When I re-watch the Kickstarter video, the core of the game we have feels pretty much on target to what I remember being excited about. We could always add more things, because it’s a simulation, and you can always add more things, because it’s moddable, and of course the game could always be a hundred times better than it is because the ceiling on good games is super high but when considering fundamentals, especially the engine fundamentals that started this conversation, I think it does reasonable justice to what we thought we’d be building back in 2013.

I understand that lots of people may feel incredibly differently, and if you do, please be welcome to take the many, many hooks we left in the code to realize the version of the game you wanted. It’s what I’ve gotten to do over the last five years; it’s what your support has enabled our whole team to do, and it’s a joy I hope we can share.

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Triggers me every time. Learned to hide it well.

Part of why I still believe. Honesty and transparency. Please don’t drop the ball.
:merry:

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To add my personal opinion to this pool.

I have been backer since kickstarter and the impression i got from the information they gave us was a game where you build a town from the ground up until you had a blossoming city. With the main focus being on creativity and emersion with your hearthlings. That they would not feel like just another citizen. And above all that basicly anything in the game would be moddable.

Looking at the game right now all of these “promises” are in the game or being worked on.
Yes the development took way longer then the kickstarter said but i have not had one day that i tought the developers would just abandon the game.

That might also be my personal experince since i am a board/cardgame developer. For me my games are like parts of me. And i got the same feeling from this developers. They dont create a game to make money they want to put their ideas to life and see other people enjoy that part of creativity they put to life.

I have been on discourse on and off for the last 5 years and the developers where always there mingeling with the crowd. Awnsering important questions but also just having fun or answering a simple question.

I have loved following the whole development and being able to be part of it. In my eyes stonehearth is becoming just as they said it would. Step by step but all steps where in the direction set by their vision.

And i must give my compliments both to the devs and the comunity because stonehearth has been one of the most if not the most enjoyable experiences in a community. Game comunnities tend to have lots of toxic in it but i have rarely encounterd it here and it has been fun allmost all the time I was here.

And i just want to thank you all for that!

And feel free to agree or disagree with me ^¢^
I just felt like sharing my personal opinion

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If it helps, previous year I wasn’t worried about this stuff, optimistic even, because after this there will be more time to work on more stuff. And having heard of dwarf fortress made me confident that there would be enough time for lots of stuff. But before I read @Moai 's comment, I did begin to worry since it was implied that these times would come to an end.

I agree with this very much.

I also agree with @Melozone, while I do not have much experience with early access games (all I encountered and really followed was Kerbal Space Program and Stonehearth, and KSP did actually release as a darn good game) but from the stories I hear, from the consistent stories I hear from multiple people, there is some worry. Then again, my ignorance shows through seeing as I’ve thought for most of past year that stonehearth isn’t one of such games, (they’re still at it, for goodness sake.), but maybe I am wrong.
The dev’s want the game to be the best they can make it. To the point where they will spend a year reworking the core of it, spend half a year fixing a feature that was never going to get good enough with the old system, and I believe that is what makes this game good. @dev’s, If you’re still reading; keep doing this, keep revising if you need to (even though it gave you lots of crap in the past year), don’t stop not cutting corners. :slight_smile:


Whoa, they don’t have another 4 years if they need to, what financed dwarf fortress then, seeing as I’ve heard it has taken decades (well, just one, let’s not exaggerate here) to develop. Why would stonehearth not be able to go down that route if necessary.

So that must mean that they cannot have a vision. With all respect, please explain yourself further.
(mainly, radiant existed before they were bought by riot, and had a vision then, did they suddenly lost it?)

There is also the other side: there is no improving something that you leave. I know this would be really unhealthy in some circumstances, but sometimes it might not. And that is where criticism comes in.

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