Not really a change. Level progression has been a development goal since… I’m guessing day one. Certainly as long as I can remember.
To use your example:
The Beast Master is an experienced trapper. So I doubt you would be able to promote a worker to be one.
I remember @Tom specifically stating in one of his videos that he wanted the game to have a sense of loss, when you lose one of your most experienced crafters. It shouldn’t be a simple task of Craft Tool > Promote to replace them. I wholeheartedly agree with this design decision.
Instead, you promote your worker to be a trapper with the skinning knife. He has the basic functions that allow him to fulfil that role. As he gains experience, he will unlock additional skills until he is able to ‘level-up’ to Beast Master /Shepherd. Those roles will have the basic functions, and they will gain additional abilities etc etc.
I might be wrong in all this, perhaps @Tom or crew could expand a little. I personally think that it’s a great way to deal with classes.
Eh, they always said there was going to be a few RPG elements in it. Besides, I don’t think there will be many levels per class, so a busy trapper / carpenter / whatever will level up quickly.
I agree, but because worker is the base of the tech tree. Worker cannot become a BeastMaster, you must promote a Trapper (to use your example).
[quote=“Froggy, post:21, topic:7428, full:true”]
I remember @Tom specifically stating in one of his videos that he wanted the game to have a sense of loss, when you lose one of your most experienced crafters. It shouldn’t be a simple task of Craft Tool > Promote to replace them. I wholeheartedly agree with this design decision.[/quote]
I agree, it is the chain of experience as to why it would hurt - you have to promote someone all the way up that chain again. Now there is a place I agree with you. A brand new Carpenter should not be able to be promoted to Carpenter 2 until he had gained experience. This is where I feel there is a flaw though… as he gains experience toward Carpenter 2 his abilities should not change. Until he is promoted to Carpenter 2, he should only be able to do Carpenter things and all the things any Carpenter can do. A worker = a worker likewise a Carpenter 2 = any other Carpenter 2.
See it like this. Promotion from 1 to 2 is getting new tools, and with that the ability to create new things. Leveling up is just the experience with the current tools to be able to create more difficult pieces.
I do see what they announced like that, that is what I don’t like. Level 2 class of any experience level should be able to create the same pieces/things.
I don’t mind that Level 2 class has to gain experience before promotion to level 3. Perhaps the piece unlocked with experience is the talisman to promote to level 3 but I don’t want a Level 2 class who can’t do the same things as another Level 2 class.
Image having to send another Level 2 class to that part of the city because the one who is there can’t do the given level 2 class task. Makes no sense.
but, I don’t believe that’s the intention… taking @Froggy’s example, you would have worker > (skinning knife) > trapper > (levels up) > beastmaster
I don’t think it would be the case where you had a trapper on one part of the map who could do X, Y and Z tasks, while another trapper could only do X and Y…
edit: and now that I reread that, I think we would be better served with some official verbiage on the current intentions for unit progression / tech trees…
What about professionals like carpenters though? I’m not sure that I would necessarily want (I’m undecided, basically), but there’s surely a case for a L3 carpenter making more things than a L2 carpenter…
Looking way back at the old tech tree posted on the kickstarter, it looks like a Carpenter won’t level up, instead a Carpenter will make a wooden mallet, and then that Carpenter (or another one) would be promotable to Mason. It’s possible the Carpenter will need to earn enough XP to be available for promoting to Mason, though. Similarly, a Mason would build a stone hammer that can promote a Mason to Blacksmith.
Again, looking at the old tech tree, a Carpenter makes a hoe, which allows a Worker to promote to Farmer. Then, it looks like they can choose to become either an Herbalist or Brewer (hopefully the player gets to make this decision once they’ve earned enough XP, or perhaps via some new tool we haven’t seen yet). From there, these classes level up to Alchemist or Brewmaster, respectively, and both of these would ultimately level up to a Physician.
The Trapper would undergo a similar progression, choosing either the Shepherd->Rancher path, or the Hunter->Big Game Hunter path, and ultimately both would become Beastmaster.
Hopefully Alpha 5 goes well and they can ship it soon, and we can start hearing more about how all this will end up working.
Yes, that is how I read the Radiant announcement. Worker A Class 1 can do X, Y and Z because he has gained experience but brand new Worker B Class 1 can only do X, until he gains experience.
That is how I am reading the announcement and what I am saying is flawed.
We are working on this right now, and a lot is changing as we talk about it, so at the moment, no details are set in stone. What I can tell you is that we have a few gamplay principles:
Giving a citizen a profession should be a significant choice (like picking a major in college, etc). The citizen gets cool abilities, and will accrue even more cool abilities as they do their profession, but at the very least, there is an opportunity cost (as you already see, promoting a guy to a farmer means he doesn’t get to build houses any more).
When someone does a lot of something, they should get better at it. We’re exploring a whole range of options with respect to what this means, from passive things like stat bumps to things that enhance player-options, like more recipes.
In no case should the new options that become available to the character as they get cooler give the player more busywork. If anything, the new abilities should make running your town easier. It might take multiple iterations to find out what works best for each class, like we saw with the trapper.
As an example of things we don’t yet know for certain, I can’t say yet whether all your guys with the same profession at level X will be identical to each other. From a design perspective, the more homogeneous the perks are across all people with the same class level, the easier the game is to tune as a whole (As an example of the opposite thing happening, see any D&D 3.5 polymorph thread. Wizard->Hydra @ level 7? Wizard now has 7 attacks per round and is your party’s best grappler? ::fighter goes to cry in a corner, along with every monster designer for every splatbook written thereafter:
However, looking beyond just class progression, citizens already vary by initial stats and personality; I can easily imagine that one citizen may end up with unique buffs/debuffs based on things that may have happened to them in game, and that these buffs may intersect with their class in individualizing ways.
The three most obvious ones to me are as follows:
-More recipes.
-Faster work.
-Better chance of high quality (legendary/artefact) items being crafted.
I think that making a level 2 carpenter = a level 2 carpenter = a level 2 carpenter (or whatever) makes sense from a gameplay perspective - having one that can craft comfy beds but another that cannot will IMHO just lead to unnecessary micro (“damn, picked the wrong carpenter again… now where’d my bed-maker go…?” etc). I mean, I like the idea of having some top-notch craftsmen (ie, you’ve levelled their skill up a lot), but not rolling dice to see which otherwise-identical craftsman can build a particular item.
Lol .
Indeed. Heck, imagine that you tend to always use Alice for woodwork… she’ll soon level up into a L10 carpenter, whilst Bob the carpenter languishes at L3. Now, if a goblin raid kills Alice… well that sucks, but I think manages to make losing Alice meaningful whilst simultaneously allowing you to recover “simply” by levelling Bob up.
oh, wait a tic… are you suggesting the scenario where advancing to the next level for a class could offer different perks? so the first carpenter who hits level 2 gets the “exquisite bed” recipe, while the second carpenter who hits level 2 gets the “exquisite dresser” recipe?
yes, I could see where that would be problematic… one potential solution being that every advancement comes with identical/known results…
“awesome, he hit level 4! he can craft silver lined storage chests!”
p.s. I can’t get enough of @sdee’s nerdy D&D references… she earns just a bit more street cred with each one…
