Hi guys, first of all congratulations for the amazing mod.
Im playing Stonehearth v1.1 + Ace mod 0.9.3.3 (this is the only mod) and I have noticed that all "crafters" ignore nearby bins, they go straight to far away stockpiles. I basically only use stockpiles+bins. I always uncheck the "use higher quality ingredients" for each item being crafted, but the behavior persists. I have also noticed that cotton is still missing from the bin list and that summon stones dont seem to be working right now.
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this is a base game thing, but is fixed as far as i know on the unstable version of ACE, not the normal steam version yet.
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As most people in the ACE Discord already knows, the next ACE update will have several (essential) fixes and a couple of new things, most notably drinks!
But after that one, we’ll be focusing on the last few changes to the base game before we finally! get to the juicy new stuff/dwarves and so on.
One of the things we’ll be focusing for that update will be the herbalist, with multiple ideas we have to make that profession really cool and important - even if you have a cleric.
Although the Drink Update is not live yet, there’s still some backdoor planning going on for the next update, and I’d like to publicly consult about a matter: herbs. So I’ll repost here what I posted on Discord:
How do you feel about the “herb” resource?
There has been a lot of talking about the hoarding of herbs in the game recently () and indeed the herb resource is arguably one of the easiest resources to hoard in the game. Not only because of how fast you can grow them with a farmer or how fast they regrow from plant nodes, but also because of how generic it is. You have multiple sources (several different flowers) but in the end they are all “herbs”. And herbs are all you need for most herbalist/herb related things. For example, all tonics - except strength, which also requires varanus skin - basically requires different amounts of herbs and that’s all.
So simply having a brightbell field basically allows you to obtain and enjoy all the benefits of having herbs. There are very few places where they are used specifically, and it’s usually a decoration or so.So the question is, how do you feel about herbs?
The good side of the current logic is that it is simple and it works, basically. That’s mostly what matters.
On the other hand, ACE brings an increased depth to the game that while keeping to the essence and not going too deep, also allows the player to manage and provide different things through dozens of different ways, etc. ACE is, all in all, very resource/production chain focused, which for most people provide a more engaging gameplay.
The next major version of ACE after drinks will have the Herbalist as one of its focuses so the question being posed here right now, basically is:
Do you think the way herbs currently work are good enough? Would you like - as a player - to have an actual reason to perhaps grow different herbs? Or to have the herbalist recipes be a bit more interesting?And how simple/complex would you appreciate such a change to be? I can come up with simple changes that would already spruce things up a lot while keeping the game relatively simple - for example, herbs could be divided by a couple of types, like healing and toxic or by color, having a couple of basic colors (blue, red, yellow) and recipes could then require certain colors, making all herbs more useful. As long as all of this is clearly explained and comprehensible to the player AND all factions have access to basic herbs for basic things (like healing tonics) the game difficulty would be basically unchanged although the reasons for having different flowers and such would be there
Or one could go a much complex way, with very specific recipes and such – but honestly I think this would be too harsh/specific
Either way, feel free to express your opinion on those thoughts here:
Please vote in the poll if possible and have a nice week 
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Ooooh, seems like a topic for me to make a fuss about!
First of all, as I proposed some time ago, I’d simply move cultivation of some herbs to the Herbalist. Second, a gathering zone where regrowing wild plants and fungi could be harvested by the Herbalist (i.e. a vegan version of the trapping grounds) would add some purpose. Third, and I’m already working on it, I figured out the Herbalist could perform some extra actions on crops and plants (e.g. uproot a fully-grown crop so it can be placed as a standalone plant later, trim a small/medium tree so it doesn’t grow further). Actually I’m not very fond of the seed dropping mechanics, I’d make it more difficult to reproduce plants so the cycle requires a Herbalist.
When it comes to herbs themselves, I’d divide them into few general categories, like roots (radix), leaves (folium) and flowers (flos); you can find many other official plant part names if you search for latin terms in ethnobotany but these seem the most general to me. Also, herbs could require drying with recipes calling for either fresh or dry leaves/flowers. Drying table would of course be crafted and operated by the Herbalist (@DaniAngione you know wHere I’m going with tHis).
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I like the idea of having different “types” of herbs (the idea for healing, toxic, etc.), and some new potions to go along with them. I’d say keep the existing potions but update their recipes and make them basically 1 herb type + 1 “catalyst” item (e.g. how courage currently uses varanus skin, make e.g. strength potions require something like toxic herbs + iron ore, energy potions require healing herbs and toxic herbs, stamina potions could be a basic healing potion + a vegetable + toxic herbs)… so the toxic herbs are used in higher-level recipes, the herbalist starts out with healing herbs and then starts to work with the more… er… adventurous recipes once they know they can cure any failed experiments hahaha.
I’d love to see herbalists be able to craft incense/vapours as well, which could work as area-of-effect buff appliers with a limited lifespan. They might just be the same buffs available via potions, merely made automatable by infusing the potion into specially prepared charcoal or whatever… what I imagine is basically a firepit/brazier which only accepts incense units as fuel, and which has the buff aura active while the fire is lit. Ideally, though, I think these incense braziers should give more minor/subtle complimentary effects to the active-use potions… e.g. have a kind of incense which increases inventiveness, or which increases the chance for a hearthling to want to have a conversation (you could frame it that the scent lowers inhibitions and makes people feel relaxed with each other), or improves health regen without actually buffing health amount… the idea being that the incense braziers are placed where they’ll have maximum effect (e.g. place the inhibition-lowering incense in a pretty loungeroom/recreational space to improve the chances of hearthlings stopping to have a conversation in there… the aesthetics of the area + chance for a good conversation means hearthlings will gain happiness more easily in that situation.)
One idea for a new potion is a “calming potion” or “tranquility potion” – slight speed decrease in exchange for boosts to creativity/inventiveness (i.e. chance to make a fine item), health regen, and experience gain. Diligence might also drop slightly, depending on what feels balanced.
Personally I like the idea of having some “generic” potions, and then getting more complex with more specific/potent potions right down to where you’re using specific herbs (which gives a great reason to acquire seeds and learn to grow all the different types) or other specific reagents. I don’t think that will appeal to the wider player-base for ACE though, I know plenty of us would be keen for deep production chains but nobody really wants a high level of micromanagement to keep multiple different buffs up at all times lol.
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I think having a few types of herbs, colorcoded based on their medicinal effects. So for instance red for healing, blue for mind increase, green for spirit, etc etc. Any potion would then be categorized into what kind of medicinal effect it is in accordance with the herbs, and that type of herb would be needed.
Beyond that, what I would find interesting is to have bigger, more potent herb species in each category in each biome that are more difficult to aquire and cultivate. The more potent potions could then be made using the more potent ingedrients of these flowers, or by destilling the medicine from lots of less potent herbs (this also gives you a way to use the many herbs you hoard, although it is time consuming for your herbalist as to incentivize cultivating more difficult herbs.) Size and colour would be an easy way to convey to players the complexity of this system, so I don’t think it is that heavy. It might be useful to go for a kind of complexity that matches farms.
Example for game elements in aquisition: say “lifeblossom” is a healing herb of the “very potent” variety. It is a blossoming tree whose berries have high medicinal healing powers. It only lives in certain places in the highland biomes, and other “very potent herbs” would live only in other biomes. Which means that highland towns can be very lucky with finding one in their direct surroundings, or might find a gerenal trader reasonably quickly to get the seeds from another place in the same biome. Non-highlands towns would need to aquire it using the special “seeds from a distant lands” mechanic, which will be very desirable. Meanwhile “mildly potent” herbs can be gotten from general traders, and can also be found in the world by chance, and every biome has every type of herbs of this potency. Lastly every map in every biome has the little “lightly potent” herbs of every type.
Example for game elements in cultivation: Building off of the gathering zone idea of @Pawel_Malecki, we could instate a dark green “garden” zone. This zone can be specialized to three types; a herbal garden for the herbalist (for the cultivation of herbs), a wood production zone for workers (so the saplings from the nursery farm are automatically grown and harvested in a designated spot) or an orchard (if modders or ACE wants to add fruit for some reason). A mix is of course also possible. What the specialsation is is determined by what plants the player places in the zone.
This will take micromanagement out of the cultivation of herbs, as most plants will be maintained by the relevant hearthlings using “harvest and replant”, both whenever they need it, as much as they need it, and without players issuing harvest commands (which is still possible of course). However, when it comes to herbs, the game element will be trying to create biodiversity in the garden, and designing its contents and layout. This kind of biodiversity can be necessary to cultivate some of the more potent herbs, or you might demand that the the very potent herbs from other biomes be grown next to plants from the same biome, so that the soil will look like the soil it is used to. Most playes tend to make these types of gardens already to have herbs near, so I don’t think it is a stretch to attach game elements to this.
I also agree with @YetiChow that incense and aromas are interesting to use for more suble or specialized effects (again, based on types of herbs). Much of the above will be just a little too complex if potions have their current use, but if using the wonders of the natural world is rewarded, and getting/growing the herbs isn’t too much of a grindy or hoardy pain, it can be a good addition.
And there are many ways to reward this type of gameplay. The gardens or insenced bathhouses can be places where hearthlings seek social time, distraction from emotional pain, or to relieve the stress of being unneccesarily put on town alert all the damn time. I belive we now have weapons that can inflict wounds (debuffs) on enemies, so our hearthlings might get these debuffs as well and need longer recovery that usual (for which specific herbs might help), and aromas can imbue places in the town with subtle effects that help out their hearthlings. Maybe a hearthling will unconciously carry more things if he feels fit. Adding depth to hearthling wellbeing can have plenty of opportunity to make all of this worth it.
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When I play Stonehearth with friends, the network_send is causing the game to stutter. How did it happened?
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Base game issue unfortunately, the game has really inefficient network code. as far as I’m told, it basically sends over EVERYTHING, to everyone, all the time
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I agree with Nikosthefan. IMHO: i really like the current simplicity, headache/micromanagement free of herbs, but I feel some changes to the herbalist class would be very, very welcome. I think this class needs to acquire stronger habilities to better justify its existence.
One idea: instead of herb classification/tiers, how about the inclusion of very potent potions which require “a lot of one specific common herb” + “one specific very potent herb”? Examples: a potion which permanently increases one stat; a potion which greatly increases hearthlings speed/carry capacity for 24 hours; a potion which saves a hearthling from imminent death.
Perhaps you could create potion recipes to be used inside quests or to initiate quests, example potion of love, potion of ressurrection, potion to regenerate a lost member, potion of “afterlife” dreams, etc.
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I will try to put it in another way: perhaps the biggest issue is that the herbalist role as a medic/life saviour is missing. He is not the one to carry a fallen hearthling (anyone does), he is not the one to apply medicine (anyone applies), he is not the one to take care of a hearthling while he is in bed, he is not the one to cultivate or gather herbs in the wild (the farmer cultivates). The fact that there is only one “single type” of herb (healing herb) only adds to the problem, but it is not the whole problem; indeed, we would typically expect the herbalist to be a living enciclopedia of all useful herbs. To make things worse, there are no diceases, no acidents, no health issues at all, they are all absent from the base game except for someone that falls during battle - and in this case the herbalist role is to only fabricate healing stuff. IMHO that`s the issue. With fertilizers, seed boxes and golems from the geomancer (potions required), the herbalist “uselessness” decreased, but it is still there.
So, the herbalist is a class that was born dead, and perhaps what we can do about it is adding other roles/compeling reasons.
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Another issue: the existing potions are rarely used; they are useful but i rarely need it, except for healing tonics/bandages. Below, some suggestions for new potions (better explained), that require specific & very potent herbs. Obviously, they all have tough requirements and cooldown.
Example 1: potion of eagle eyes. Reveals the entire map.
Example 2: potion of visions. Reveals the location of an epic equipment. (Note that I mean something really incredible, like a +70 damage or +50 armor). This could also start a new quest. Note that epic equipment for other professions also fit here - like an epic hammer for a blacksmith that diminishes by a lot time to craft stuff, or an epic hammer that unlocks recipes for epic weapons. Only once per map.
Example 3: potion of regenaration. Heals a lost member/permanent effect; this would require the inclusion of scars, missing fingers, fear of death, missing ears, scar in the head from a huge ogre mace, every time the hearthling HP drops below 10%.
Example 4: potion of dreams. Reveals (spawns) an (previously chosen type) big ore mine nearby your banner.
Example 5: potion of summoning. Gives the ability to summon creatures to fight by your side.
Example 6: potion of heroic might. +50 defense and +50 damage to one character, supresses hunger and sleepiness for 36 hours. Only twice per map.
Example 7: potion of plenty. Did you accidentaly run out of food as Northern Alliance? Use this to gain +300 wheat.
Example 8: potion of greater mind/body/spirit. +1/+2 in one stat, permanent!
Example 9: potion of destiny. Calls divine help/blessing to the hearthling s side, life changing events happen to the heartling. Removes a negative trait from a hearthling; this starts a quest and at the end a new positive trait is added. The quest should allow free open ended, multiple roleplaying from the part of the player, it shouldn`t specify exactly what happened in details - it is up to the player to create the stories he want to his character. This will help players who like to roleplay by giving some reality to the stories they create to specific characters, so that it is not only inside their heads. Additionaly, this potion sets to 3 whatever trait that is lower than that - so the player can imagine/roleplay the hearthling became more compassionate, learned to think more, learned to value spiritual things, became stronger, and so on, whatever the reason he decided. This potion effects obviously should take a long time to take effect (30 days at least). Example: imagine a guy who wanted to become a Knight but has terrible stats (1/2/1), and the player “roleplays” in the past he was known as week, dumb and coward, was humiliated. The player decided he will make this hearthling a good hearthed & inteligent, almighty Titan Slayer, so the player makes this hearthling drink this potion. Soon a quest starts explaining what this potion does (calls for divine help) and that soon your hearthling should start facing life changing events; one month later, the quest continues stating that after a long time, your hearthling seems changed - for better, but without stating what happened, instead asking “what happened? No one knows”.
Example 10: potion of the rushing worker. Gives all workers +15 carry capacity and +500% speed outside roads, supresses hunger and sleepiness for 36 hours. Do you know those far away mines but are afraid because of enemies that might appear suddenly? This potion is the answer.
Example 11: potion of teletransport. Transports a fighting party across the map. Only twice per map.
Example 12: medicine. This could be used inside quests, for example, to gain a trade connection with a city from a different faction - and all their goods.
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Only herbalist and cleric applies medicine
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Am I missing something? My Herbalist is always the one to use potions on injured hearthlings.
There are better ways to make the herbalist useful than giving him godlike power potions. Best not to get carried away.
(edit: Thanks Bruno was beginning to think it was another feature I was confused about lol)
I like the idea of the Herbalist being the one to grow and take care of herbs.
We could definitely use some sort of disaster system introducing diseases or natural disasters like Townsmen. This could give several classes a bit more utility.
I realize some of them would be hard to incorporate like burning buildings down. Maybe instead of damaging the building it applies a burning particle effect to player structures that tank appeal, have a chance to cause nearby hearthlings to make a spirit check or flee in fear, and/or cause a burning DoT to any hearthling that gets close. Either require workers to repair the building or haul water to the fire from wells to decrease its health until the fire dies. Hearthlings suffering from burn damage could have a debuff until an herbalist applies a poultice.
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I can swear I have seen a worker applying potions, either in Stonehearth 1.1 or ACE.
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There are indeed, but the question that remains is what solutions can be adopted that are at the same time: compatible with the light hearthed feeling of the game (Team Radiant s vision), don t introduce micromanagement and complexity, compatible with what ACE Team already created (fire damaging structures will ruin all the time & effort spent to create a building with high quality ingredients), compatible with the limited ammount of people ACE Team has, and finally compatible with the desires of all players. Introducing diceases and disasters, or any kind of life threatening situation, if not very well planned, might conflict with the light hearthed feeling of the game.
One thing that could be done, that Dani mentioned somewhere i don t remember, is introducing non permanent negative effects that can only be healed by a herbalist; i go one step further and suggest that while that hearthling is being treated, both the “sick” and the herbalist have a animation that suggests that (example the sick hearthling stays in a bed inside the herbalist workplace and the herbalist remains in that workplace doing something). It could be few simple general debuffs like sick and feeling pain.
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Ummm maybe I wasn’t clear, the fire wouldn’t actually be damaging or ruining the structures. It would be more of a visual effect with debuffs attached to simulate a fire since an actual fire that destroyed structures would cause all sorts of issues (not to mention the nightmare of creating the system).
A disease being introduced wouldn’t be any more complicated than the Candledark mod (an officially recognized mod) turning your hearthlings into zombies that can only accomplish basic tasks until they’re cured by an herbalist.
They can be well planned and there are instances of both disasters and diseases already being acknowledged by Team Radiant when they were running the ship. The final encounter requiring you to tear up the terrain to reach seeds or else your hearthlings suffer when they’re near and Candledark are examples of this.
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Well, returning to the original questions (sorry Dani).
Q: Do you think the way herbs currently work are good enough?
A: Yes, but only if no additional potions/items are added.
Q: Would you like - as a player - to have an actual reason to perhaps grow different herbs?
Or to have the herbalist recipes be a bit more interesting?
A: Yes, but only for (new) potent potion recipes requiring specific (new) potent herbs, or other new cool stuff/recipes. Otherwise, no way. Why complicate stuff or increase micromanagement without a good reason?
In all honest, with the current available potion recipes/items there is no need to have so many herbs, personally I would simplify that list - if nothing is added; note that I am speaking about flowers as herbs, as decoration they are useful.
I forgot to mention before: perhaps the herbalist can shine as gardener/decorator for natural stuff, being able to create live fences and with knowledge to deal with a lot of plants/flowers for decoration purposes - in opposition to a potter/mason/carpenter which deal with decoration for “built” areas. In my last gameplay as Rayya Children, it was nice to see a desert transformed into an oasis full of plants, fruits and flowers, very rewarding. This is the only time I found satisfying to have so many herbs, because i used them as decoration.
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Q: Do you think the way herbs currently work are good enough?
A: Kind of, but not really. I mean they do their intended job, so if you’re not looking to add depth or complexity the current system is okay. Personally value the herbalist more for their ability to turn starting supplies into seeds allowing the player to feed their settlement if no trapper or farmer is present.
Q: Would you like - as a player - to have an actual reason to perhaps grow different herbs? Or to have the herbalist recipes be a bit more interesting?
A: Having an actual reason would be cool, whether it be for new decorations or because herbs have specific qualities. Honestly though, in every game I play I try to have a small patch of every harvestable herb there is.
Q: And how simple/complex would you appreciate such a change to be?
A: I actually love @Pawel_Malecki ideas. It sounds somewhat similar to Dani’s Trapper+ mod. This adds depth without making the game even more unbalanced by giving hearthlings unreasonable power. That kind of stuff should be reserved for workshop mods and not official sources.
I agree with @Slashkoln that the herbalist can shine as a gardener/decorator. Settlement Decor adds a Gardener class along with some well made decorations including plants. Gardens of Hearth adds even more decorative plants, beautifully sculpted by Amnaa, cultivated by the herbalist themself.
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I also like his ideas. Perhaps, you could also rename the herb group to “flowers” or “plants for decoration”, because that is what they are truly useful for right now - for most of the time - and create a “generic herb” resource that is cultivated inside the gathering zone Pawel_Malecki mentioned; graphically that generic herb resource would seem like many types of different herbs and plants.
About giving hearthlings unreasonable power, unfortunately the player already has through debug tools a very easy (to acess and to use) AND oficial way to make himself extremely powerful; besides, the hearthlings are already godlike in the sense that nothing affects their health/physical integrity (except death through combat) and only very powerful enemies can make the player feel threatened - it is not uncommon to hear players say that they feel threatened only by the Titan Quest.
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Lightning strikes, sandstorms, cold weather, and starvation also affect their health/physical integrity. Pretty sure the devs tried to at least be mindful of making hearthlings unreasonably powerful and dev tools aren’t really an excuse since they kind of had to be shipped given the state of the game at release.
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