My Thoughts on Game Direction

I personally saw it as Minecraft but controlling a group rather than an individual. I saw it as my means to hand build an empire simulation compared to just plopping buildings down like in any other city builder. I saw it as a sandbox that everyone at the time wanted and was trying to achieve.

Mind you, this was back when infinite procedural worlds were on the table too…

The Kickstarter backers were promised one thing, partially received it, then had it taken from us later. Even when Stonehearth first went to Steam (I remember that mess), those promises were still valid. Today, not so much.

Because we were promised that too. When Riot bought Radiant, MANY of us disliked it, so much so that the thread was locked and closed after a couple days. That being said, we were assured and promised that even though Riot was buying Radiant, that they had no intent on changing the game or not following through with the original development.

Well, we were lied to…almost again.

I dont really want to, but i feel i must have this conversation with you SA… The last couple of weeks have been quite tiresome for me to read the dayli posts on the discourse because of one simple thing, your inputs on almost every corner of the board. Your opinion has a great value, but it has come to a point where it is to much.

If we look away from Stonehearth and games or even just online forums for a second, it shines so brightly at me, that you have some things you struggle to understand or accept about the reality around you.

Many times you end up openly wondering why it is, that the rest of the world seem to take the oposite viewpoint than yourself? As often you can, you point out an undefied group that you include yourself in.

There come a point where everyone finds themself in that position, but the question should always be, if the rest of the group/world is against me, what are the odds, that it is me that are wrong? And by wrong, i mean blind. Ignoring some other factor as a safety mechanic for ones psyche.

This may have to be deleted and please flag the post if you feel like it, but these word needs to be said openly!

I hope that you at some point find joy in the stonehearth project and with that the community as a whole.
May the wind be at your back dear sir!
Thank you :merry:

3 Likes

You’re not the first person to tell me to shut up, and will far be from the last. I had typed out a long reply, but it’s basically the same that I’ve already said elsewhere.

To answer your question, the odds of me being wrong / blind are the same as everyone else is right. Just because I’m not a happy Yes Man like so many others, doesn’t mean I’m wrong. Just means I’m more annoying.

I love Stonehearth as much as the next guy and have 2200 hours (third of that is probably AFK playing, to be honest) of play time on Steam to show it. I’ve been a part of this forum since before it was on steam, hell before there were even shields in the game (I remember how happy I was to switch to dev builds for the first time and find them). And since the beginning, I’ve done what I could to help this game, and have given my input where I felt it was needed.

And call me an ass for saying this, but because I’ve been here since the beginning, because I was one of the Kickstarter backers that have basically been ripped off, and because I’m the only one that ever seems to speak what’s on their mind, I feel I’m more than entitled to voice my opinion when I see fit.

I know I’m hated, especially with how many times I’ve been told to shut up recently, as well as how the devs straight up ignore me anymore. But honestly, I find myself not really caring. If I annoy you to the point that you want me gone so the board can go back to puppies, unicorns, and rainbows, then say so without pissing around the bush. But until one of the devs tell me to shut up directly, or one of the voiceless people here tells me to leave, I guess I’ll just keep being me.

Keelah se’lai, @Fornjotr.
And no, thank you.

3 Likes

If there is unease on this forum, maybe it’s because the game is mostly being rewritten. After 5 years of development it appears it’s back to the drawing board.

In my estimation, we’ll be lucky to see 1.0 by 2020.

3 Likes

[quote=“Logo, post:36, topic:31755”]This is part of the reason why every mention of PvP in multiplayer is a sore point, hearthlings fighting one another goes against the very nature of the game.[/quote] Agreed.
I suppose the reason I don’t care about the PvP goal is that I that rare person who doesn’t like PvP in general. Who never liked PvP.
Still, what about hearthlings vs goblins? If one player plays as goblins, is the concept still against the spirit of Stonehearth?

[quote=“SirAstrix, post:42, topic:31755”]
The Kickstarter backers were promised one thing, partially received it, then had it taken from us later.[/quote]
Can you give me the examples of things that were taken away?
I’m not making fun of you. I genuinely don’t see what was lost. I joined the community much later, somewhere around A15+.

[quote=“SirAstrix, post:42, topic:31755”]
Because we were promised that too. When Riot bought Radiant, MANY of us disliked it, so much so that the thread was locked and closed after a couple days. That being said, we were assured and promised that even though Riot was buying Radiant, that they had no intent on changing the game or not following through with the original development.

Well, we were lied to…almost again.[/quote]
Again, I don’t see how the game changed.

3 Likes

I don’t really know how to answer that without bordering on offense.
If I get it right, Brackhar and others answered some of your questions in the other thread. Yes, their answers were foggy and conflicting, but that doesn’t look like “ignoring”.

3 Likes

I agree I’m not a fan of PvP. The only game I felt really nailed it was Dark Age of Camelot…everything that came after was a knockoff lol. I tend to despise it in games these days because the folks that seem most adamant about the feature are not necessarily the type of players that are healthy for a game’s community, just my opinion. The feature tends to be slapped onto every game now-a-days because it’s a cheap way to add additional content even if it makes absolutely no sense thematically.

That said if one person played as goblins, orcs, or kobolds that would be a great way to deliver on their promise of PvP without violating the spirit of Stonehearth!! Not something I’d play, but that’s a great example of a compromise that should work for all parties involved!! :jubilant:

3 Likes

I know it’s a long winded post, but I broke it down over in this post. If you have some time, you can see the Riot acquisition post, and the promise to continue over here.


Say what you have to say. I’d rather you be full and honest so that I know what you’re thinking.

On the dev streams, multiple times now my questions have been skipped over and not recognized until someone else says “Hey, what about SA”. The quarterly stream, as well as the most recent stream, are two specific ones that come to mind. And if I’m reading into this wrong, then I apologize now. This is just how I feel when others have to point me out multiple times.

As for the forum, I’ve asked multiple questions across multiple posts (so much that I’ve annoyed @Fornjotr with it) , and the questions will go unanswered, or they will cherry pick which ones to reply to, and even then give very vague answers. To me, that feels like they’re giving just enough to say they handled it…without actually handling it. If you want more defined ignoring, how about how we’ve yet to hear from Nikki, even after calling her out half a dozen times?

PS: I’m just picking on you with this, @Fornjotr. Please don’t burn my house down with lemons.

Been there, done that.
Usually nobody cares to say, “Hey, what about Mel”. :glum:
Although generally it’s not ill intent. It’s lack of attention. At least that’s what friends keep telling me. “People are often half-blind and half-deaf, do not hesitate to repeat yourself”. So I do not chalk it as ignoring in my case.

Too late for that, our engineers are en route.

2 Likes

This seems… grossly overestimated. I read your other post, everything you said is “Off the table” is basically the SH being smart and not committing to saying concrete ways they are going to accomplish their goals because they’ve done that before and gotten burned. (See 2013-2015).

I did the math, and 72% of the items on that list have either been completed or talked about multiple times as going to be in the game. 22% Are unsure purely because it hasn’t been talked about much. and only ONE has been axed (Pvp Raids), and that is only because it seems it isn’t going to be PvP as originally promised but possibly another variation. (This based on the stretch goals)

All of this on top of the fact that they could finish the campaign, fix building, release titans, and ship it and it would still be a damn fun game that i could and have sunk hundreds of hours into. (though i would be a little peeved if this happened… please don’t do this team :stuck_out_tongue: )

Go back and watch some streams and read some responses by Stephanie and see where she’s said multiple times that they aren’t going to make promises of when things are going to be implemented or how far in advance.

The majority of your concerns are about things that haven’t even come to light yet. For instance, the building editor. We don’t even have our hands on it and conjecture and theory about how awful it seems is being thrown around like fact.

I get the worry because the game isn’t falling in line exactly as a few people want it to, and it’s your right to voice your concern about that worry as a paying customer. I just feel like I’ve been a part of this development long enough and worked in the field long enough, and been apart of early access that have taken longer than Stonehearth (Ie: Kenshi, which is turning out fantastic btw) to see that they are constantly delivering on the development front (to varying degrees of intensity) and not breaking from the spirit of the kickstarter.

So all in all… i’m pretty chill about it. Go team. :smiley:

5 Likes

You are right. As is SirAstrix by voicing his concern. While I may not share his sense of direness of the situation, it’s the perfect time to tell about possible problems. When the editor is closer to release it will be much harder (read: less likely) to make big changes.

4 Likes

Of course, the difference is between suggestions vs condemnation for things that we haven’t even had a chance to test. :wink:

2 Likes

THIS!

As someone who has hung out in many Early Access and in-dev game communities before, the biggest red flag for an “abandoned game” isn’t a lack of communication from the dev team; but when the dev team and the players start talking “past” each other e.g. the devs declare that they won’t make an estimate on X feature’s release date, and players keep requesting/demanding a date; or when the focus is on Y area of the game but player feedback is only concerned with a different area altogether.

These days, feedback seems to mean 80% complaints or criticisms, with little in the way of recognising what is working well. And I can say from both player experience and amateur dev experience (as well as working on all sorts of other creative projects) that nothing kills a project faster than a sense that everything is going wrong and nobody recognises what’s working well.

Now, the last thing I want to do is get all dramatic here; because I don’t feel like Stonehearth is anywhere near danger of abandonment/falling into non-viability. What I have seen in the past, though, is that even really strong and enjoyable games can fall apart purely under the weight of “negative hype” – the kind of harsh comments, un-solve-able criticisms (i.e. “it’s bad” as opposed to “I have an issue with these specific things for these reasons”), and doomsaying which are all too common in all sorts of gaming forums these days.

Negative hype becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy; and for that reason @SirAstrix there are some of us who get very concerned when we see people seeming to draw conclusions and make decisions before the discussion has had a chance to conclude. And to be honest, that’s what it looks like in your posts – you seem to have made your mind up already. I’m not going to tell you not to do that, or what you should and shouldn’t say; and to be fair you have at least visibly taken responsibility to separate facts from hypothesis and not go around making exorbitant claims of conspiracy or money-grubbing or any of the other usual nonsense which gets thrown around in these situations.

But I will say this: if you’ve made your mind up already, I doubt that having this conversation will change anything. You know the saying “a watched pot never boils”, or some local equivalent? Well, that’s the situation here – Stonehearth is taking its time to come to the boil, and because the changes are so gradual it doesn’t look like much is happening at all. In these situations, I try to step back and give the game some time to warm up while I focus on something else. I’ll check in to see what’s in the pipeline (and I’ll keep up with the community because that’s heaps of fun!), but I’ll hold off the game itself while I wait for a few more significant changes to come about. Then, when I step back into the game again, I can experience that sense of novelty as I find and try out the features which are new or changed – the pot has begun boiling while I was looking away. For someone in your position of dissatisfaction with how the game is coming along, I’d suggest giving that a go. It’s not easy at all to take a step back from a project you’re invested in, but sometimes it works wonders. That’s something I’ve learned the hard way, hahaha!

Going back to the general thread discussion: it’s important to note that at this stage, not even the devs can be sure of how we’ll get from our current point to the envisioned end point. That’s not to say we don’t have a general direction in mind; but the immediate journey won’t necessarily go straight towards that “point B” by the most direct route. In fact, from my experiences in game dev and Early Access, I’d readily bet my all my worldly possessions that it won’t follow the most direct route, that we’ll take a winding and confusing path to get from A to B. So we have to remember that just because we’re not always walking straight towards point B, doesn’t mean that progress isn’t being made. Think of the roadmap image – that map is a representation of the work to be done, but anyone who has gone on a roadtrip (or who likes adventure books and movies, e.g. The Lord of the Rings or such) will know that the journey doesn’t neatly follow the map. The adventurers have to take side-paths when the direct route is blocked, they have to make detours to get supplies or learn new skills in order to continue through the challenges ahead.

That’s where we’re all at now – the dev team are in the process of figuring out how to go from a single town or village into a larger world-map which could have interaction between towns, and all that cool higher-level gameplay. However, they simply don’t have the knowledge on how to make all that happen yet… so we’ve stopped off in Rivendell to train and resupply, while some of the devs finish up long-term projects the others can seek wisdom from experienced adventurers (i.e. Riot’s other experienced devs) on what might work to get past the coming challenges. So, while it might be one of those “boring” passages of the book with a lot of dialogue and not much action; it’s also a great chance for us to see how this world of gamedev works and find out some of the backstory :merry: For those of us who are here for the “action scenes” (i.e. getting hands-on with the game), now might be a good time to take a break and come back when the action picks up again – don’t worry, there’s very little chance you’ll miss when it does pick up again! But those of us who want to stick around for this chapter should be aware that there’s a lot of dialogue and exposition coming up, with not much in the way of plot progress… it’s only once everyone is caught up on where the story is going that we can get back to the action.

7 Likes

Empire has been axed too, per Richard himself over here, as well as seasons has been stated that they HOPE to get it in one day but are unsure. Meaning it’s no longer a goal.

I can see why you’d call half an overestimate, but at the same time, that’s a loose 72% as most of the things on that list haven’t been hardly talked about or even touched in a long time. By all means, tell me when the last time you heard anything about Pirates, Ninjas, and Politicians was. Because if I recall, it’s been months, and even then it was kinda danced on as it would go against the warmness of Stonehearth. And that’s just one of the many topics.

I’ll agree to this.

I’m not asking for that kind of information. I am saying though that with all the ideas and talk that has been going on, it sounds and looks like it’s going in a completely different direction that it is supposed to.

At the same time, when the person writing it flat out says they won’t be doing something, it’s safe to say that that won’t be in it.


No, please, discuss away. If I’m wrong, I will admit it. In fact, in a private conversation with @MelOzone, he made me realize that I may be being too much of an ass to the developers.

On the other page, @nikosthefan and @genboom have come up with an idea that, if implemented, solves my concerns. At the same time, I have to keep repeating myself to everyone how I asked about my concerns, in the beginning, was told too bad about them, and haven’t gotten a clear response since. If Nikki were to come forward and say “I talked to Richard and we’re going to do X in regard to your concern”, I’d be right there with everyone that we need to wait and see if it’s better. But we’re not getting that.

You made the statement above that I’m backing up what I’m saying and not just talking out of my ass. I want to ask you to do the same at this point.

A few months ago, I made the statement that the conversation system was a waste of time. After a long discussion, Richard finally convinced me that it was a needed waste of time and why to which I admitted that.

The water system I was excited about, and actually spent days trying to break it in order to help Albert, never once talking bad about it rather than that we weren’t being kept in the loop on what was going on.

Then we returned to the building system, to which I voiced my concern the same as everyone else, then received a hard “too bad”. I then became elevated at the statement of why I got told too bad; “because it isn’t Stonehearth’s Style”. That’s when I went overboard in my rebuttal, to which I will apologize for, and people began psycho analyzing me, wanting to know why I was so angry. It wasn’t until then that everything else came out.

So as I have shown you why I feel the way I have, and why I come to the thoughts that I have, I ask of you and everyone else here (specifically @Solus and @Fornjotr) to show me where I’ve been this horrible menace that y’all now act like I am. If I have been this ass for a while, then I will apologize and admit to it. But I get this feeling you will only find that my disposition and outrage has only been since the post of the Desktop Tuesday.

But at this point, there’s no proof the devs even know what the end point is. So your whole montage of “We’re on the path”, how do we know that? Multiple people have asked repeatedly what we can look forward to, and Richard even stated that they have it 85% - 90% figured out…yet they won’t share with us what that is.

eh… to be honest, I think there’s a fair bit of miscommunication feeding some of this tension. I’ve been following along with those conversations, trying to keep out of them unless I have something crystal clear to add because the last thing I want to do is muddy the waters with my own analysis on top of analysis or my version of psychoanalysis (as you so aptly put it, because it’s true) trying to figure out why you feel the way you do… because ultimately, it doesn’t matter what’s driving the feeling; the complaint is coming from a genuine flaw in the game design and it’s something that all of us want to address.

The tension comes in when we’re all trying to address it in slightly different ways, and not all seeing eye-to-eye. An example of that: you’ve claimed that the small-town gameplay where hearthlings matter as individuals is in direct contradiction to the early goal of empire-building. I’d say, on the other hand, that the small-town gameplay is essential if we’re going to get to the empire building stage – without functional personalities and a reason to get invested in our characters, the enemy and allied leaders we’d have to deal with as an empire would be boring… in fact, they’d literally just be Yes Men and No Men, arbitrarily assigned as allies and antagonists. Now that the hearthlings have a modicum of personality, though, it paves the way for more advanced systems like diplomacy and PR/relationship building.

Take a classic game in the empire-building niche, such as Crusader Kings, and then imagine if you removed personality traits, conversations between entities/NPCs, or the quirks which made you attached to any of your particular citizens. The game would become very boring, and very math-based with pretty much no story. The smaller, simpler social systems are the foundations of the larger ones – so if you’re making war on a faction of aggressive, hot-headed and proud people you can predict their actions based upon those traits, and then you can use your own actions (e.g. you might start a rumour/whispering campaign, or you might present a challenge to them, or undermine their alliance with their neighbours) to defeat them using an up-scaled version of the same systems that operate within your town. The only difference is that you get to take part in the conversation and steer its content, rather than watching it unfold in the background. If the system isn’t there, the hearthlings can’t interact with it and react to your inputs; so you wouldn’t have the way to goad the enemy into attacking your main castle in a poorly-planned campaign…

That’s the end-goal here – not just that specific scenario, but to enable the complex and rich scenarios which can only work when multiple layers of systems interact. You talk to the governors/rulers of other settlements, they talk to each other, and there’s a ripple effect which changes the geopolitical makeup of the world of Hearth. Or perhaps you create an alliance, and as part of that committment you help an ally fend off a titan… in the wake of that, your enemies gain new respect for your martial prowess so they’re less likely to raid you. We know that’s where the dev team want to go, because they’ve told us that multiple times. What they don’t know yet is the lay of the land between where we are now and point B; so we can’t even pick a road yet because we’ve yet to see what’s waiting on each of the possible/hypothetical roads.

That’s merely one example of how abstract and complex some of these questions and concerns become. There aren’t a lot of specific answers to the questions you raise, we only have the general plan to refer to. But the team are taking small immediate steps towards that plan’s goal, so they’re already working on solidifying those nebulous questions into some underlying/foundational mechanics. Once those are proven to work, they can build the next layer outwards of complexity and abstraction, and then the next layer again.

At the same time, there are multiple paths in progress. That makes it look like there isn’t much progress happening at all; when in reality the progress is happening over a very wide area. It’s just like how a narrow river looks like it’s flowing faster than a wide river, when the two are really flowing at the same speed – the progress seems relatively quicker when you can see it more closely, but from further back (and with a larger scale that’s necessarily how you have to view things) the progress is more difficult to track and there are less reference points to show it.

With so much up in the air, the dev team often don’t have time to give detailed answers to questions and concerns like they used to do. That doesn’t mean they don’t want to, or that they’re ignoring the concern; it generally just means that the person who is busy working on the solution is too busy doing so to stop and explain what they’re up to. Or, in the case of more conceptual concerns, there’s the factor that what they’re working on now is only the bottom layer of what will become a much larger interaction between systems; so they have to be careful not to promise results that they’re not ready to deliver.

Going back to the journey metaphor, wherein we’re still stopped in Rivendell loading up the carts for the next leg, we’ve reached the point in the chapter where some of the characters want to race off and let the baggage train catch up (that would be the group of players who want to see more stuff pushed to unstable branches), there’s another group who want to get all the info they can about what’s next and where the challenges will be, and make plans to tackle them (that’s your group), and there’s a third group which wants to focus on the tasks at hand and on loading up with a diverse range of supplies and skills to tackle whatever is coming. I’d say I’m in that third group; although I’m very interested to know the same things that the second group want to know I also know from experience that no plan will turn out exactly as expected. So, I’d rather focus energy on the task immediately in front of us, take the opportunity of a break while we have it (hence my recent suggestions to put the focus on the community’s creations rather than the features currently in progress) and let the scouts/vanguard do their thing. Then, we can have those answers the second group seeks, and get moving ASAP and by the most direct route which will keep the first group as happy as we reasonably can keep them. We’re on an epic journey here, it’s the march to Mordor not the race to reach Gondor – actually, we’ve just done the race to reach Rivendell (i.e. that period of rapid content creation which led to the Engineer and so on), hence the need for rest and recovery.

3 Likes

I completely agree that small-town gameplay is important if we’re ever to get to empire building. If I came off that I felt it was a contradiction as you state, then I apologize, as that wasn’t what I was trying to say. What I was trying to say is that there’s proof that the Lead Designer of the game has axed the whole idea of building an empire, and that’s what bothers me as it was honestly the biggest selling point of the game for me.

In a general setting, I would agree with you. In the setting that triggered all this though, there are variables that have been set that (I personally feel) counter this. All that being said, I also feel that if they can take the time to cherry pick what they want to reply to, and figure out how to vaguely answer what they cherry picked, then they could have taken the time to answer more fully to begin with.

Hi SA :merry:

To be honest, i refuse to dive down in the pile of posts/responses you have made on this discourse, just because of the huge amount.
If you want to have me or others deliver you a line of text you have typed at some point, to function as proof for the anoying element that, i myself, calls you out to be, then i dont put enough weight on the subject to put in the effort.

The picture on the other hand, i can try and paint for you could look like this:

Simple things like the overuse of quotes. I know this function is really cool and clearly have an important function, but when you quote 3+ things in every reponse, something strange happens. It ends up being cherrypicking and the answers you give can fail to present honesty or any weigth. (Notice that it is only a chance that this is the case)
Visually it looks confusing and cramped.

Personally i love textwalls or somewhat deeper thoughtprocesses presented in text, but when the walls is filled with questions based on doubt of recievers ability to answer correctly i loose the interest to spend time reading something that can only lead to more of the same and not a conversation of a solution.

When i say this next thing, it is important to say that i dont compare you to a child, but the process in the example.

So when children reach a certain age, they start to wonder about their reality and begins to ask their elders about all kinds of stuff… Why is the car over there red? Because someone painted it that color… Why did they choose red? Maybe they find red as their favourite color. Why do people have favourite colors?.. And at some point you as en elder just have to say stop, even though you acknowledge the curiosity and that it is important to have.

This is what i mean when i define you as tiresome in my other reply. I dont think your opinion is tiresome. I dont think that your feelings about broken promises are tiresome. I dont think your quest to get answers are tiresome.

I simply feel you are putting to much wood on the fire, to fast. I hope you have experience with firetending, so you catch my example?

That is why i have not told you to shut up or go away, but if you could just preserve the fuelstorage a bit, so we all make it through the night, i personally would be more content with your aproach to the issue :wink:

As usual, thank you.

6 Likes

They were mentioning that personalization system from A22 is a possible (and required) basis for that. Personalities of hearthlings form their predispositions to certain things - and that is what a political system can be built upon.

There also was a long talk (earlier in this topic) where we were discussing “broader map” and making multiple towns and “colonies” and possible switching between them (and problems rising from that), and sending parties to adventure. I took it exactly as an ability to “upscale” our position from controlling a small town to controlling an Empire.
I, however, understand that before moving to this level we need to have our small town mechanics working. Makes no sense to bite more than you can currently chew.

So yeah, kinda like that.

5 Likes

Hey guys, I wrote a book on this subject over here: Desktop Tuesday: Complex Rooms

Locking this thread for now because it’s gotten super long and hard to follow. To continue this discussion, start a new thread with a specific question, or PM me directly. Thanks! :smiley:

6 Likes