Desktop Tuesday: Complex Rooms

Just so everyone is on the same page:
The issue with walls is, as far as I know, entirely related to the case where you have a big room which is parted in two by a inner wall. Now the question “when does a wall cease to be a wall” actually is, “is it two rooms devided by an partitioning wall, or is it just one big room which has a bunch of voxels in it that look like a partitioning wall?”. This is important for the game, since the first option allows the roommoving tool to move the rooms separately, while the latter option does not.

It doesn’t matter that everything is in the end understood as ‘voxels’, instead of ‘walls’ or ‘floors’. It is also not a matter of what can be called a wall (a semantic discussion; putting a word on it), and what should instead be considered modern art, or some other thing. The entire reason you need to know what a wall is, (and when it isn’t), is because the wall definition is needed for the room definition. So the question would really become, “if there is a partitioning wall separating one room in two, then what criteria does that bunch of voxels have so that both I and the game agree that that bunch of voxels makes the two rooms separate?”

This is the light in which I made the first wall definition suggestion, but @yetichow’s mention that it needs to touch the floor at some place is a good suggestion. Although I don’t know how well that works if radiant removes the door margins. If they do, and they might because its been complained about in some other thread that I’m too tired to link in now, you could have a wall with doors along its entire length, and it would look like a wall, but be no different than the free-standing partition that Yetichow describes.

On the matter of holes, don’t forget that windows and doors punch holes in the walls (those voxels would get earased). It is thus highly unlikely that a wall will have the bottom row of voxels completely filled in (just an example of why I wanted ti mention it). You could argue that you could detect a window or door being placed there, but those are really just frames, and a player could decide that they don’t need that for the window/door to function as such.

To respond to @miguelbazil s idea to check wether a hearthling can pass a wall, and if yes, to not have it be a wall. There are many things I now think of that could break that (what if creatures are bigger or just waay smaller than hearthlings, can the wall still protect then, should the game account for that…), but the most important thing is that enemies won’t be able to pass through a wall with a door, but that wall does have a hole in it with a size that a hearthling could theoretically pass through.

To answer @MelOzone’s questions. 1. I would consider the ‘ruin’ walls to be a wall. if it would separate two rooms, that would not feel weird to me. Now if I were a hearthling judging a home for whether I wanted to sleep in it, I would maybe have my opinions about it, but it would still qualify as a wall, just a bad one.
2. I would also consider the upside-down U-archway a wall. In fact I would consider it especially to be a wall. Consider a wall for instance which is 7 voxels wide (just enough for a door) and 5 voxels tall (just enough for a door), and which has one door in it. Imagine it at the end of a corridor. I would, without question, consider that a partitioning wall, even though in reality, it is an archway with only two voxels (1 voxel visually scince the pillars hide behind the corridor walls) margin on the side, and one voxel on the top, and for the rest it is just a big hole where the door goes.

In fact, as far as the game is concerned, any wall with one door and no windows is mathematically speaking ( There is a fancy word for this, I can’t rememer) an archway as you describe.

It’s late so I don’t fully know how well my tone or interpretation of what was obvious was in this reply, but I don’t mean it in any way bad or know-it-all-sy. It is all very much, in my opinion. Just so you know.

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Actually, it’s a good idea. Perhaps not in the options, but what if we give the player the function to decide if he wants so split the room in two? Even more, we can allow him to arbitrarily split a room in two, even without walls (for example, with possible selection tool). If he decides he wants to merge two rooms, he chooses that. If he decides he wants this space to behave as separate rooms while designing - why not?
I have a sudden thought that this division on rooms is actually two separate situations:

  1. What should a hearthling count as a room?
  2. What should a builder (temporarily?) count as a room for the sake of usability and design convenience?

It is not necessarily the same division. Moreover, the information about rooms in 2nd situation is meaningless (?) outside of construction stage. So “manual” selection of division during this stage can make sense.
As for “what a hearthling should count as a complete room”, that may also depend on his traits. Maybe he likes his walls with holes for ventilation.

Actually, why not? I understand why circles and diamonds are not added, but why not this? IMHO it is not that difficult, and this tool can be useful when doing diagonal walls manually instead of building them slab by slab. It may be a “middle ground” solution.

Thanks! That’s actually a counter-example for my example. Your wall is indeed a wall.
But imagine a wall like this:
1200px-Westernwall2
(it’s actually a bridge but imagine it’s a wall). I typically use this design when constructing “arabian”-style castle walls or open awnings/shadowed entrances to the building (to hide from the hot midday desert sun). While it is convenient to consider it a wall for the purpose of construction, the resulting “room” should logically be treated as “outdoors” by hearthlings.
So we have a situation where an “empty doorframe” should be considered a wall separating two rooms, and another situation when a similar structure shouldn’t be a wall (like when it is an “outer” wall).

PS. What is a wall? What is a room? How does a one-hoof trot sound like?

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The game has a visual aesthetic that our tools and default algorithms all support, and diagonal walls are not part of this, just as gradually stepped terrain is not. Aligning towards a visual aesthetic is useful for a few reasons: people who are using the tool to get a quick result will get a default that looks like it belongs in Hearth, and so that we as a dev team can optimize our tools around a few key use cases. However, we will still have the voxel tool so you can build whatever you want, with the extra benefit of having your town look very distinctly yours.

If you care deeply about making this easy, I would definitely look into a modding solution, since the engine could clearly support it.

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Understandable. Unlike @SirAstrix, I’m not that concerned with preserving the current features of the builder as they are. It’s more a concern that if we have only a one-slab tool as a freeshaping alternative to “quick rooms”, “freeshaping” may risk becoming slow and tedious. What I suggest is not necessarily a “diagonal wall” but rather a method to possibly automate bulk “one-slabbing”. For example, allow dragging and “drawing” rectangles (as we can now), but in vertical direction in addition to horizontal.
If we by doing this also make SirAstrix’s life of a city builder easier, that’ll be a good bonus :merry:

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its great seeing my old post come to life

this is very close to how I had imagined it would work about a year ago

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as far as the problem of when does a missing block in a wall designate when that wall should merge the next room?
I would say that you need to create a minimum space that a hearthling requires to walk through like a doorway. so 3x4 in a wall would mean it would merge with the room on the other side, otherwise its decorative. does that make sense? maybe include this default cutout in the building editor as an open archway instead of a door for seamless room transitions.
you could then include different versions of trim that is applied after recognizing that there is a 3x4 hole in the wall, starting at the floor or have multiple options with different styles of trim. for instance the desert themed housing would probably have semicircle arches instead of square ones, as it fits the Central American theme. I know a lot of houses are built with those arch designs in them, it would really make it pop.

my reasoning is that if the hearthlings cannot physically access the other side of the wall, it is effectively another room and should be treated as such. keeping this consistent makes things much easier to understand as a player.

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I’m not sure the issue is so much “when the wall is missing a block”, as “when there’s more blocks missing from the wall than there actually is wall left.”

Imagine a prison cell as an example, where the bars are one or even two blocks apart. It’s still a wall in the sense that it divides up the room, but does it count in the building editor as one wall or a bunch of separate pillars?

I think that the real question here is how to give players the most intuitive controls to build such things with. Your point about being able to physically access the other room is one such case of making things intuitive and obvious (and I agree with that suggestion, BTW); but that’s only one definition of how rooms work. For example, in one house I might want to have a single large room which is divided up into a couple of areas; whereas in another house I might want those same divisions to split that room into several smaller rooms – in that case, how do I define that within the design, or cause the editor to make those splits for me?

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I’m not following. So…from here on out, our buildings will just have to be sitting on top of the ground rather than at level? Will roads / paths be the same way? If I’m missing something, please tell me, because I’m not understanding why it’s better when it looks cheap.

I’m not saying we need tools that specific. What I am trying to say is that with the system (as shown), to make a turret for a castle, you’d be making multiple upon multiple rooms on top of each other, expecting them to combine. So when you’ve got 7 rooms all on one area, essentially on top of each other, how’s the new editor going to take that?

Haha, I get it. I’ll shut up now.

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I wasn’t trying to make you feel bad. It’s just… you sounded a little too grumpy.

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I like to see these discussions, they make for good thought challenges :smiley:

BTW, not discussing on whether something is a wall or not, but rather if a given wall allows to create a valid room. That way, you can have archs on an entrance, without effectively have a room, for example. It could still be a wall, just not a valid room-creating one.

Well first, I’m considering that a window or door is not exactly considered as a hole (which I may be wrong on, mind you), but like you said, a frame that doesn’t have to be accounted as a hole when deciding this. Now, the creature size is, indeed, a good point, as I mostly assumed, like @genboom that the hearthling was the lowest size, and forgot about other creatures. I’m not entirely sure if the smaller enemies can fit through smaller holes than an hearthling (if someone can point that out, it will help). Also, the hole size is not the only thing to consider, but for example, if a hole is 3 voxels high, no entity would go over it without stairs, so that could be a form of wall, that’d be my guess. Also, bigger enemies wouldn’t fit on certain heights, true, but I think that going with the smallest sized danger as a means to decide this is the best way to go, in this case.

Oooor, you could simply say “any hole not made by a frame-type object is a non valid hole, and the wall cannot create a room on those conditions”. While that may be more limiting, it would still have a solution, where modders could create entities like archs and other framing objects, that could keep a wall without removing the room-creating ability. So you could effectively still create rooms with arabic entrances, or any other thing, if you have a framing object with what you want, as a door or window.

Also, regarding the room splitting part, I do like @Przemyslaw_Majkowski idea of making that an option. Since those things are calculated once, when the dragging settles in, adding a condition based on it shouldn’t really affect the performance I think.

That’s where my “what’s the goal of a room mechanically mean” question was aimed at, as I imagined some people would actually go this route. But the reality is, how important is that effectively to the game’s mechanics? Other than room size towards an hearthling’s happiness value, I don’t think that really has an impact. But if you think about it, currently I think that they calculate room size based on some similar conditions I mentioned. If you have a closed house, and only access through doors and windows, it’s a valid room. Anything only accessible by doors is a room. And they then calculate on whether that room is enough for their happiness (and I think it has to be the bedroom?)

My question is, would “defining” a group of rooms, with these conditions, as a single room have a meaningful impact on the game? Or only on having you be able to define something for yourself? :wink:

That’s why I laid the simpler rules instead of going towards a more flexible, albeit complex, set of rules for defining rooms. If hearthlings understood that a certain room was for sleep, one for eating, one for entertainment, etc, then I would agree that a more “let the player define rooms” approach would be really important. On the current state? Not so much. But maybe that’s just me, of course.

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no, I realize that the game has not put in place real collision boxes yet for creatures of varying sizes, but maybe this will at least get it started.

my point still stands, you are building buildings for hearthlings not monsters, and so a wall should be defined as a barrier preventing hearthlings access to a section of floor space or square footage.
so technically because of how limited hearthlings movement is, a wall would only need to be 2 blocks high to be designated as a wall.
if you think about it in terms of the Stonehearth world, 2 blocks is half the height of a hearthling. a door being 3x4.

if you had a 3 foot wall in the middle of a room in your house, it would obviously be a room divider that you wouldn’t climb over, especially in front of guests lol

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Don’t worry, I ate a Snickers before I decided to write this. That being said, I am irritated with the attitudes I get any more and how this game isn’t going anywhere near what it was originally advertised as or has been.


Please show me where anything that’s been said that opposes an idea y’all have had, actually influenced the direction of the game recently. Because from where I’m sitting, all I see is a bunch of Yes Men on this forum, that half are too afraid to voice their opinion, and that’s how y’all want to keep it. I say this, because when I do go against the grain of this forum, I’m greeted with:

as if it’s wrong of me to have problems with the fact, that this game isn’t going anywhere near where it was originally said to go, and now is being changed into a game that doesn’t even sound like the Stonehearth many of us have been playing for the last 2 years.

To me, and I’m sure to others, this building editor is a copy of The Sims 4. And for those that think I’m talking out my ass, let me demonstrate:

Resizing Wall Tool

Moving Rooms Around

Combining Rooms

Raising And Lowering Wall Height

So how is this Stonehearth like at all? If I wanted to play The Sims 4, I’d head over to EA and give them the money that I accidentally used to back this project that is now being planned to be The Sims 4 meets League Of Legends in Kakariko Village.


After what I’ve just shown, please explain to me how this isn’t a replication of The Sims.


And this is understandable. But y’all don’t even care anymore about who you’re alienating or why. With each Desktop Tuesday, y’all roll out another change, and when there’s opposition, it’s basically met with “deal with it” or you get short vague answers.

I know for PR reasons you have to be careful what you say, but it’d be nice to actually know the truth for once. So answer this for me, and please be honest and answer the question in full, not partial like so many other responses.

How is Stonehearth changing for the better, by imitating some of the larger cash cows out there?

Anymore, these changes and plans are moving the game in a direction that’s more focused on bringing in new players rather than rewarding the ones that stick with a game. For the longest time, many of us have been told and seen the game as a sandbox, and some members here have even had their builds shown off for the level of their creativity. I’m sorry, but you can’t tell me that this editor will make things easier for designs like these:

So what, we should alienate the people that want to build like this, and that’s an acceptable sacrifice for y’all? Are all these monumental builds (and I’m sure I can find more) “not in the style of Stonehearth”?

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By the berry-bushes, them castles are amazing!
This is for sure the style I’m imagining when building things in Stonehearth (I’m sure my things don’t come any close to these, but still, this is what I more or less am striving for)

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I, for one, see no reason to go back to how Stonehearth was when I started. The raised floors on the inside never looked very good with doors (on the ground level they’d clip through the floor and raised up - which you couldn’t do anyway - they’d look dumb on the outside) and I don’t get why you’d want to make a building editor that makes worse-looking buildings.

They’ve been taking inspiration from it, and so far it definitely looks like just a copy. But the A10 building editor house menu was also more or less copied from The Sims, so it’s not like this is totally a new thing.

I’m just going to have to see. I was really excited at the first talk of a new building editor (though I often end up liking features I don’t care for much during their development anyway), but at this point, I’m tired of it. It’s going to take forever, it feels like - I’m guessing A24 or later, and there’s no signs of A23 starting yet - and while I’m still holding out hope for it being better, I’ve started to get a bit more doubtful lately.

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If me being polite makes you perceive thing this way, then thanks, but no, thanks.

I do not think of myself as of a “Yes Man”. I rather try to do something like this:

Because if I don’t, life starts to suck pretty fast. As I’ve joked once, “Something with my eyes, doc. I see s**t everywhere.”
Now when I made myself clear (I suppose), let’s move on to

  1. I’ve actually never played Sims 4. I’ve played the first part. But that’s not the point. The point is,
  2. Is being “a copy of Sims 4” the only drawback you see here?

You see, I’m not a designer, let alone UX or interface designer, but there is a thing called “proven solutions”. There was no “Start” button prior to release of Windows. Interface with drop-down menus and buttons with pictograms, and confirmation windows with “OK” and “Cancel” were all invented at some point, then became a “common place” when designers saw this unified interface philosophy made it easier for users to grasp the basics and understand what to do.
If the solution “from Sims 4” is good and convenient, why not use it? Not like they have a patent on it or anything. Many solutions were used somewhere before, and inventing a bicycle over and over again isn’t worth it most of the time.
So for me the fact of “copying Sims” says nothing. It’s how it’s done and whether it suits the game or not, is it useful and fast and convenient and functional and easy to understand (damn, it’s a lot of words!) that really matters.

Why not?
Oh, another thing. Maybe in addition to copy&paste and selecting it makes sense to add an “extrusion” tool. That will make more complex building forms easier to construct.
edit: something like this >>

PS. I can’t imagine how persistent one should be to build something like the things on your screenshots. Not only because these builds are complex, but also because the current editor is (sorry, Radiant) bugged as hell, and you can easily break the design, forcing you to start over.
PPS. That being said, SirAstrix, I value your presence at this forum. You may be grumpy but your example makes criticizing easier. Just let’s try to keep things civil, ok?

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The sims building editor will be inferior to stonehearths by the time its done. Why? Because this game is based on voxels and the Sims 4 requires you to build on flat ground and have flat walls. I’m hoping that eventually in Stonehearth you will be able to build structures in and around terrain and actually watch it be built, rather than just magically appear like the Sims 4. To make the comparison at all just makes no sense to me.

Yeah, things have been delayed, but this is due to the AI. Which I agree with you on, they should have probably went with the Work Menu Queued Priorities List just like in RimWorld and I still wouldn’t be upset if they adjusted the current AI for something more interactive because of unforeseen problems. Really the AI just needs to be whatever is best for the game we are playing. They could always reuse the AI in another project as well since they have invested so much time into it already.
Even comparing the game to RimWorld is unfair because its a 2D game. Just because of the nature of voxel games the AI has thousands of times more things to interact with in the world, because the world itself is a cluster of objects. THe problem they have had is defining the ways to interact with objects for a desired outcome. This is like a brute force method of doing things as you will always have bugs when trying to do something new until you have written the definition of how to interact in this particular situation. This is why I really do think they will go for a more interactive solution to have humans resolve some of these problems as the AI ask questions the UI will give you options to hand them answers so the hearthlings understand what to do. Will the end result UI look like RimWorlds list? Maybe but under the hood it would still work completely differently and is much more complicated.
My guess is that its actually so complicated that they are not sure when to ask the questions that would require a player to interact, and they also have to design a set of tools for questions they don’t know will be asked. This is why it really is like someone said in one of their videos- they are building a 3D voxel editor that also happens to have an AI that automates the work for you. If I had to put a number on it I would guess that this is somewhere between 8 to 19 times more complicated than other games, give or take.

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I wasn’t referring to you specifically when I said that. I was referring to how every update and every change, the people that talk about how amazing it is and how they need to keep up the great work, etc etc, and don’t even know why it’s being changed.

On top of that, why is it that except for rare occasion, I’m the only one that ever seems to have a problem with the direction, or lack there of at times, that the game is going?

If you have to ask this, then you didn’t get any of the points I’ve been trying to make. The new / Sims 4 like Editor is for quick square buildings. Even in your gif, it’s quick excursions of a SQUARE editor.

My point is that with the current system, you can draw out the shape you want, then auto-wall it. With the new editor, you’re going to have to draw each corner out, and even then if the editor doesn’t like how you’re combining 6 plus rooms to make one curved one, you’ll have to go back and do it by hand with the voxel tool. And let’s be real, Stonehearth has never liked something complex like that without crashing. So the process to make complex structures…just got more complex.

I completely agree it’s broken and bugged from hell. But at the same time, when it works, people have been able to do amazing things with it. So why not fix it and improve upon it, rather than giving us a dumbed down version that’s going to do harm to more detailed and advanced players?


So…ignore the pictures I posted because the walls poof in rather than get built?

Yes. Unless Sims 4 shows the construction workers coming out digging a hole in the ground, pouring concrete for the foundation of the house, growing a tree so that it can be chopped down to lay the floors, putting up 2x4’s and sheetrock for the walls, installing doors and windows, and shingles on the roof. Then you can say its a valid claim that its just a copy of the Sims 4. The destination may look similar at the moment, but the journey couldn’t be more different. If you play the game for the end result I would imagine you could just use console commands and it would be a lot more fun for you, but to each his own.

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Try to stay on subject for a min. We’re not talking about the journey of building the house. We’re not even talking about building the house period, we’re talking about the design of it. And last time I checked, when he drug the wall out in the video, BEFORE IT WAS BUILT, the design kinda poofed up as if it would in The Sims 4.

If we were arguing about the actual building of the house, I would have said some completely different things. Things I can’t even think of because I don’t have a problem with how houses are built. On top of that, the arguement is how the new design limits people. I’ve yet to see you contribute anything to that point…

I still think you are missing the point. In the Sims 4 you exchange currency and you have access to a building editor that instantly builds things and requires no other resource than currency to be built- not even time, as its instant. Again, even making the comparison really makes it seem like you haven’t actually played Stonehearth or something.

As far as how the new editor may be more limited for specific use? I would say its pretty pointless to argue about because its not finished.