Ok, now I need to pose some questions :
How old of children will be playing SH?
If (when) pvp is put in, What would it look like for a G rated game?
Does the game have set goals so that we can do a pvp for this age group?
Reading this feels like Iâm having my intelligence insulted. As if theyâre declaring what they say is superior. Especially when Iâm compared to a flat earth-er. If thatâs not the case then I apologize I took it that way.
As it stands, it sounds like PvP would be like Minecraft servers where youâd control to your personal extent who plays with you and not. So if you didnât want pvpâŚjust disable it.
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oh no i didnât mean to compare you to a flat-earth-er, iâm sorry that it looked like that.
itâs more that i couldnât think of a similar case? though now looking at it i probably shouldnât have added that part, or at-least think up a better example considering that the flat-earth-ers are the ones who actually stubbornly âIgnoreâ i was just saying that you might have missed some points, though⌠i guess that could also be insulting?
aw man iâm really bad at this whole feedback thing
sorry i often mistakenly make comments that are insulting without even realizing it
by no means do i think youâre less intelligent, nor that iâm superior, i was just trying to convey how i felt like we should be thinking about the gameâs design and how ours differ so we could be on the same page(for the lak of a better word), but that still doesnât justify that those words were likely insulting so i apologize for that
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Sorry for the late reply. I wouldnât say that, although I understand what you mean. Personally, my attitude to this project is similar to that of a very fragile butterfly: I donât want to say the wrong thing, or the right thing but unconstructively, and cause the devs to lose heart in the project. People have walked away from their games for less than this. So I personally do feel like I can post criticism, I just try to be careful about how I say it. Stephanie does a great job replying to a lot of the more popular flamey comments, but you gotta think that takes a toll on a person. I donât want to add to that to make Stonehearth a nasty game to work on, because I do want to see it finished.
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Hmm, one of my many jobs as team-all-around-facilitator is to look for patterns in conversations. If I notice weâre having a conversation a lot, Iâm supposed to ask: is it a productive conversation? Are we getting anywhere towards a resolution?
A recurring conversation I see in this thread and others is a.) âwhy is this game not what it promised to be/what I wanted?â and b.) âIâve given this feedback, why isnât it heededâ which is related to c.) ânobody wants objecting opinions.â
I would like to help resolve this conversation, if I can, because it usually winds up in the land of name-calling and sadness and drama, and when you come to this forum, as when you come to the game, Iâd like you to feel like youâve done something happy and uplifting with your time, as opposed to stressed out or like youâve stressed someone else out.
So I guess that gets to item c.) first. This forum is sort of like Team Stonehearthâs house on the internet, and all houses have vibes, and our vibe is that we want you to be able to come here and relax and be welcome and share what youâve built with each other, which is why we try to greet new people and remove posts where people offend each other, etc. While it is possible to hit this vibe this while disagreeing about things, it requires a lot of energy and tact, and thatâs often not relaxing. So @SirAstrix and others who are perhaps feeling like a particular topic isnât discussed at the level that you are looking for, maybe itâs because the discussion evokes sensations that are not what people are looking for when theyâre hanging out here. Different groups of people just like talking about different things, and thatâs perfectly natural. If so, the polite thing to do is to take that particular topic to another house that has more of the vibe youâre looking for. Luckily, the internet is super big and thereâs lots of places to chose from, so Iâm confident you will be able to find a home for your ideas.
Item a.) is a lot more complex but here goes: why is Stonehearth not X, where X is a LOT of things? I believe that the fault here lies with usâie, the dev team. Back in 2013, we described the game as âEqual parts RTS, RPG, and sandboxâ or âA sandbox strategy game with town building, crafting, and epic battles!â This is an incredibly vague definition, that includes about 5 different genres, and it allowed everyone to imagine Stonehearth in their own image. This seemed great at first, but as we made the game, and as we saw how fun (or not fun) it was, and as we kept adding things that didnât seem to add up, we realized that we needed to choose a specific scope and direction. Unfortunately, because weâd let everyoneâs expectations get all over the place, some people are still rightfully confused and angry that itâs gone in a different direction than they were expecting. To those people I apologize. If I could go back in time and do it again, I would say that Stonehearth is a community builder: a game about a small group of people who must optimize their environment to survive. Secondarily, itâs a building toy, that hopefully, you can play online very soon with your friends.
Finally b.) âIâve given this feedback why isnât it heededâ has to do with the fact that the game has a certain style and is now trying to be a specific thing. We do listen to everything you say; just as we as a team listen to each other when we have wildly differing opinions as to how the game should be, but listening is not immediately equated to obeying, and it would be a very strange world if it were. 
In the end, we have to commit to one direction, and 90% of the time, even within the dev team, that means we have to disagree and commit anyway on moving forward with an implementation. We do our best to make sure everyone believes in the general direction (which we set in response to the things you want mostâplease fix the builder, please add more things, please make the features in the game make sense with each other etc) but we often have to make tradeoffs in the details.
So how do we move forward constructively with this conversation? If you have overall problems with the gameâs direction, or tone, or the way we operate as a team, I apologize: itâs too late to change these things now, and I advise you find some other place to spend your worthwhile energies. If there is something specific you would like to see changed about Stonehearth, that is humanly possible to change, definitely bring it up, in itâs own thread, and we can have a conversation. If there is a specific question you have about Stonehearth, or its direction, ask (again, in itâs own thread) and we can have this conversation. If we do something you disagree with even though you told us not to, ask us why, and thereâs probably a reason. As in my very longstanding conversation about the Mac/Linux port with @oldmacman, you can totally disagree with our reason, and encourage us to change it, and sometimes we have to agree to disagree, but at least we can have that conversation and know that weâve connected as two human beings hanging out in the same house. 
I do want to sayâdeveloping this game out in the open means that it has changed a lot; that we have all had a hand in making it better. I am especially grateful to everyone who can see what is beautiful in it in itâs ongoing present state of chaos; for those of you who call out what we should preserve, as much as what we should fix. Thank you all for your endurance, patience, and participation.
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Weâve connected as two human beings, but youâre in the house (with all the Windows users) and all the macOS/Linux users are outside in the cold 
We can have a conversation about it, but the macOS/Linux users have done all they can and the ball in now entirely in Team StoneHearthâs court.
But you keep dropping it.
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oh boi here we go
I think this has already gone 
So in other words, if itâs not warm and fuzzy like yâall want, take it elsewhere? Thatâs basically saying that unless we agree in unison with everything yâall are doing, take it elsewhere. But then you ask what you can do to make say Steam better. Sorry to put it bluntly, but thatâs how it sounds anymore, at least to me.
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This does seem rather unusual in a discussion forum.
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Or maybe she was saying since certain folks seem to think that every conversation is an argument, feel that any opposing opinion is an attack on their person, and feel itâs necessary to pick apart every single little thing said, that those people might be happier finding a group that share their opinion. That way they donât feel like theyâre constantly âunder attackâ because theyâre in the minority or not being heard because a dev isnât responding to every little comment. Itâs usually best to remove yourself from unhealthy situations, so sheâs actually being considerate. Awwwww 
@sdee While yeah this game is on Steam, I know from many reviews of games there, that the idea of the âSteam Communityâ is just a circle jerk of gamers that take themselves too seriously. I was baffled by one in particular, the guy admitted he didnât know anything about development, doesnât check the game site, had spent a handful of hours playing, and then proceeded to bash the devs and claimed the âtalentâ (which coincidentally is still there working) had left the team. The laughable bit was that if I recall correctly 30+ others found the review helpful. So a person with very little experience, no desire to cure their ignorance, and a lack of objective ability is able to influence others lol. Then there are the reviewers that flat out lie or have taken the time to read up a bit and then claim the devs are liars.
Any attempt to educate those folks is met with the circle jerk attacking your intelligence, talent, sexual orientation, gaming ability, or mental stability. Youâre âplayedâ time is because you just turn the game on and walk away for hundreds of hours at a time, and since you had the audacity to defend the game you must be a dev/white knight/hero and so your facts/opinions are invalid. I understand wanting to help the situation, but there is a degree of arrogance and ignorance, bordering on narcissism, on Steam and the effort would likely be wasted trying to change their mind.
You folks (the devs) know what youâre working on, know where youâre headed, have been open about what youâre working on and why, and have given suitable explanations for changes in direction. Iâm sure when development is further along or the game is done the reviews will be taken more seriously, so I have no doubt it will swing in a positive direction. Unfortunately ya canât please everyone, and some folks are so unreasonably adamant about not liking something that they feel the need to poison the well for others. Just to get back at the evil company they felt purposely deceived them and wasted the money they gambled on an unfinished game.
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There does seem to be a confusion on many message boards where âbeing listened toâ is a synonym for âdoing everything I suggestâ.
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I mean we all have our moments, but the whole point here is to have a conversation. Both sides have to be receptive to the idea and respect that the outcome may not be what we want.
Heck I used to think anyone suggesting PvP was off their rocker cause that didnât fit what I perceived to be concept of the game. Through the conversation my opinion has evolved. Iâm okay with the idea that they could go about it in a way that remains true to the game, but still gives folks what they want. May not be my cup of tea, but I also donât have to participate in a multiplayer PvP game, so it will have zero effect on me.
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Oh, how I could go on and on about this.
In my more cynical moments, Iâd agree with your earlier summary of the Steam community as a generalised whole; but Iâve been lucky enough to meet some people through Steam who remind me that itâs like any other community â a mix of people. It does has more of an echo-chamber effect in my opinion; but then, Iâm sure there are threads on the Steam community forums for Stonehearth accusing us here on the Discord of being an echo chamber too.
As I see it, the major difference between the Steam community and the Discourse community boils down to how people are likely to have heard about/joined in with the game. Most people here would have actively sought out the Discourse; whereas on Steam the games are literally brought to you (via recommendations and so on); the forums are right there with a link in the Library page, and the dominant voices are the most readily presented ones (as opposed to the most agreed-with ones over here â Discourse offers many tools to show support for a comment, compared to Steamâs incredibly limited options.) As a result, new players through Steam are much less likely to go into the game with a solid idea of what to expect; and much less likely to form a well-rounded/considered opinion on their first impressions. Thatâs not to say that theyâre less capable of doing so as much as it is to say that their position is more likely to be skewed by a bunch of random factors i.e. whether the âmost helpfulâ reviews at the time are mainly positive or negative, whether the top few threads on the forum are happy or salty, whether they read the news and patch notes before forming their opinion of the game, and so on.
Usually, by the time someone from one community tries to cross over and have a discussion in the other community, their mind is made up already and theyâre predisposed to think a certain way about the other community, its actions and culture, and its opinion of the game. While this doesnât eliminate the possibility of being receptive, it does certainly reduce the chances.
I wish I had an answer on how to make people more receptive to differing ideas, it would make a LOT of things easier both in and out of gaming hahah. For the moment, though, I suppose that all we can do is be as welcoming as possible to âthe othersâ even if we disagree with their ideas, in the hope it allows a more back-and-forth discussion rather than two entrenched sides throwing ideas at each other without embracing any new ones.
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Heh I have no problem admitting Iâm in a super cynical phase lol. I donât mind having a conversation about it and understanding that there may be a difference of opinion and being open to the idea that my opinion could change. That doesnât mean that the folks on the other side get a free pass to be disrespectful, hateful, or that they get to shame people because they donât share their opinion.
I came here from Steam, itâs a great platform for games. I didnât know about Stonehearth beforehand, and Iâd never heard of discourse. Before I got the game, I visited the site, read posts on the discourse, watched some of the dev streams, watched a few Letâs Plays on YouTube, and THEN purchased. My purchase wasnât a gamble because I based it off of the current state of the game (at the time). Iâve gotten my moneyâs worth.
I realize itâs unfair on my part to make the generalization, but I was referring to the negative reviewers in general and the nasty reviewers specifically. Iâm sure there are some great people there, as anywhere, but I still think it would be a waste of time given that the folks youâd be trying to convince have made it quite clear they are not receptive. Most of the negative reviews touch on building and development time frame from what Iâve seen. Building is being addressed so those will likely disappear when the new system goes in. Development time already spent canât be changed at this point so if thatâs what the review was based off sorry bout it lol. Anyone expecting the game to be rushed out the door in an unfinished state should be disregarded period.
I get what youâre saying. I totally apologize if Iâve offended, as thatâs not my intention ever. I truly do love the game and the community here. 
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See here @people, a textbook example of two people having a discussion about their disagreement in a civilized manner.
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I would say, weâve put the ball on a shelf in the corner and if weâre very lucky, weâll get back to it. 
If after everything I wrote, this is what you are hearing that I am saying, then yes, I think you should take these particular thoughts elsewhere.
Itâs an unusual forum, but then, thatâs why I like it here. 
+1 
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Geeze game devs have it hard. You go completely silent and uncommunicative about the state of your game (CastleStory, Spintires) the community riots and spends a lot of time on forums cursing your name through the echoing empty void. Game devs made their money, half-baked a product and donât hang around to cop the abuse.
Other devs post weekly updates, share tips on game design and take the time to reply weekly to concerned fans⌠and some people still get upset and spend effort and time demand that the devs are accountable to their own personal desires for the development of this single VIDEO GAME which is a THING we purchase for a trifling amount of money to HAVE FUN with : |
All of us are here trying to give a little input on this game turning out how we like our citybuilder/RTS/sandboxy games to be. If the devs listen, awesome. If they donât⌠itâs a waste of time and bad vibes hanging around degrading the place with endless criticism. The game will still turn out to be a fun little toy, by the vision of the people who have the talent and effort to create said toy.
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well, it does sorta help that we actually were in agreement on all the salient points â my only disagreement there was one of tone; but even then Iâm not worried about bringing Logo around to my way of thinking on that; simply adding a different perspective to the conversation
[going back out to general example here]
Itâs a lot easier for me to understand Logoâs perspective in this discussion because a) Iâve talked with them before quite a bit, and b) I have a common point of reference. So I can use my experience to know that anything which strikes me as âoffâ or rubs me the wrong way about that post is probably because itâs something Iâm not expecting to see, or something that hits uncomfortably close to home, rather than something I think is factually wrong. And that, in my experience, is the biggest thing â many people seem to take that feeling of âsomething isnât quite right hereâ/âI donât agree with this for some reasonâ and parse it as âthis must be wrongâ; rather than interrogating why something about the statement doesnât feel right. And to be fair, who has time to do that with everything they read? To me itâs almost a luxury to be able to have this sort of meta-conversation an really dig into what weâre doing here; in a way it all wraps back around to how we can get the most enjoyment out of Stonehearth (after all, if we understand each other better we can share ideas better and eventually play multiplayer more easily and with a better idea of what other players want from it!)⌠but the conversation is definitely taking the scenic route to get there hahah!
But yeah, were I trying to have this same conversation on the Steam forums where thereâs less context of such discussion, and where people generally (there are clear exceptions!) seem to be in more of a rush to get the answer theyâre looking for, I donât think it would go over so well.
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If youâre lucky? Surely itâs more if macOS/Linux users are lucky.
Our big mistake was not putting any cash into this. If weâd done that you might have felt obligated to do something about it.
Still, live and learn eh? 
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