Radiant + Riot Games

General Discussion
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I’ve been in the business world a couple decades, and working far longer than that.
Get it in writing.
“Logically, they would never do that” has been the mantra of every engineer, creative team, artist and content creator I’ve ever known, met, run across or heard of. And all of them have been mightily surprised when it turns out that the large monetization machine has a very different definition of “logic.”
Logically, if they determine that just some slight, minor, inconsequential changes would make the game more profitable, why, it’s just being responsible to ask that you make those changes. And then more. And really anything they want, unless you have it in writing that your team owns and controls the Stonehearth IP top to bottom - source code, art assets, direction, business model, the works.

I am trying to urgently get your attention here. I don’t want to scare you, but I do mean to. Possibly it is too late. Please understand that I am an old mumble mumble and don’t want to see another young team of creativity get subsumed by their idealistic ideas of what a business “logically” assures them they would never, ever do… but reserve the right to, at any time and without notice. But they have no plans to at this time!

I am only jumping up and down and waving my arms because this has clear and repeated precedent, and I don’t want to see bad things happen :(.

If it isn’t in writing, it doesn’t exist.
If it’s in writing, look for fine print.
If there’s fine print, get a lawyer to read it to you.

I’m sure they’re real nice people who have been enormously helpful. I have met, from nonprofits to thousands-large enterprise, very nice and helpful people who routinely make decisions that are just good business sense and being responsible and incidentally that means “increasing profits by any and all available means.”

If they’re completely serious and sincere about leaving Stonehearth entirely alone, they will have no problems at all putting it in writing.

…aaagh. I just read Sdee’s earlier post. They came by, chatted, said all the right things, had some beers. None of that exists. It’s a casual conversation with no legal weight or bearing on future decisions. You don’t need a chainsaw; you need a contract. This is classic, classic stuff, in the music industry, in the art world, in tech startups. Arm around the shoulder, love what you’re doing, we don’t want to change anything, just go about your business and don’t worry about a thing, we’re just along for the ride! It’s almost cliched.

If the founders of Riot are as personable and sincere as you describe… then there’s no harm in putting it in writing.

There’s this also, you see: what if they get the itch for a new project? What if Riot, itself, merges or gets acquired? Radiant, as an asset of Riot, goes with it. Any new owner or leadership would be under no obligation whatsoever to honor the casual conversation assurances of former leadership unless you have it in writing. If you do, then this protects you no matter where you go next - any legal documentation of ownership, or clauses regarding IP ownership, would also be part of any higher-up acquisition, and go with Radiant and Riot to any new owners.

Riot is a huge target for investors. Enormous. Don’t for a second think there aren’t groups who are thinking about how to get their hands on that revenue right now. I’ve seen people cash in for far less than Riot is worth right now; don’t think it can’t happen. At which point, Radiant is entirely at the mercy of new ownership, with no legal recourse of any kind.

Please. Pleasepleaseplease. Get it in writing. And then have that writing examined by expert counsel in the field of contract law.

/beg

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I think you might be assuming that the actual business part of this deal didn’t also happen. The fact that the amount of the sale is not disclosed indicates there is a written contract for the sale. No one is disputing that the sale isn’t in writing. Of course it is. And that same document quite likely includes terms like those you’re begging for them to get in writing. No one but those with signatures on that document and their respective legal teams have likely actually read the agreement end to end.

Earlier, when I said:

Those written terms are exactly what I was referring to. I have every confidence that these issues were considered and negotiated already.

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I might be less apprehensive if Microsoft hadn’t closed down Lionhead yesterday.

Those who created StoneHearth no longer control its destiny it seems.

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I really hope so. Acquisitions can be messy processes, and I wish you guys the smoothest of smooth transitions.

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Yeah, that broke my heart. I’ve been a fan of Lionhead for ages. They always had ambitious projects.

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Don’t even know what to say regarding this post. This guy knows what’s up. So far we got a post saying that Riot will not interfere with Stonehearth, but I really wonder if there is any real agreement protecting SH. We get told that everything will be fine, while it’s seemingly not up to them to decide anything in this matter anymore.

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Consider the following assumptions:

  1. TR is genuinely passionate about Stonehearth & its community.
  2. TR’s [former ?] owners have good business acumen.
  3. TR was financially and “institutionally” solvent prior to the acquisition.

If all three are true, there is probably no reason to invest in chainsaws. If any are false, things probably would have ended poorly anyway.

I call it cynical optimism.

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No, the fact that there IS a sale indicates there is a written contract for the sale. Huh? That’s not what “get it in writing” means.

[quote]No one is disputing that the sale isn’t in writing. Of course it is.
[/quote]
No one is, and neither am I. I’m not sure why you’d even consider that the sale itself is not a legal agreement…?

I’m sorry, I may not successfully say this gently: you and I are not on the same page here, to use the silly meeting phrase… you’re way, way over on the side of “basics of a sale 101.” I’m talking about the specific provisions regarding Stonehearth’s direction and ownership. Of course the sale of Radiant is “in writing,” it’s not like companies change hands on a casual chat… there’s a ton of paperwork and filing to be done regarding ownership, transfer of assets, and other fun stuff.

When that’s all done, Radiant is 100% owned and controlled by Riot. Riot has the legal right to do whatever it chooses with the assets it now owns. What I am referring to, and what the phrase “get it in writing” generally means, is this:

(I understand that many folks who may read this know all this, but I forget that younger folks may not have come into contact with this world much, so bear with me…)

This is to illustrate and I have absolutely no knowledge or projection onto Riot ownership.

When you receive assurances - verbally - from an owner or officer about how things will be, and you have some great meetings where - verbally - everyone talks about how wonderful this is, and your potential or new bosses are all smiles and rainbows and you walk out feeling good about the whole thing.

None of that, legally, exists. It’s still just 100% owned and controlled by the new owners. And I’m very sorry to say that it is *very common for an acquired company to have the rug pulled out from under it, thinking itself secure.

It doesn’t have to be malicious. Stuff happens. Company stockholders or ownership decides they want a new direction. Another desirable asset is targeted, and becomes a priority. Leadership changes. Budgets are reallocated. This is not “might happen” stuff, this is happening all the time right now all over the place stuff. It may or may not happen in this case.

But.

If there’s really goodwill and intent to leave Radiant in full control, then… why not get it in writing? A specific protection against further third-party sale, or a conditional where IP of Stonehearth reverts to Radiant whereas the fighting game and {secret other project} assets remain Riot’s. Stuff like that. “Get it in writing” refers to the all too common practice of executives talking flowers and candy, and many really meaning it at the time, which sounds great, but doesn’t exist from a legal standpoint and if that third-party sale happens, or priorities shift, or anything else comes up, you have no control. “But you said!” does not have any weight.

I know there’s a common and actively-marketed perception that The Business World is this orderly, efficient place where everything is done based on data and Sound Decisions. Sadly, that is not at all the case. Even when folks strive for it, the real world intervenes with Random Proc, sometimes.

Get it in writing.

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@sdee, @Tom, could we get an official statement on @spacefiddle’s excellent post? What are the terms regarding Stonehearth?

Obviously you don’t have an obligation to do anything, but I hope this thread demonstrates that some fraction of our users are worried about TR and the future of SH.

Those are fantastic assumptions. I pray that they are true. I personally haven’t seen much information that would hint that Tom and Tony had experience with negotiating company or IP sales. Their business chops may be enough to raise money to develop and keep afloat a little gaming startup, but “business acumen” is a many-headed serpent.

@sdee has kindly alleviated some worries here, but further points have been brought up. I don’t think anyone is running with torches and pitchforks quite yet, but it would probably be good from a PR standpoint to keep everyone calm, excited, and in the loop.

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Heh.

I’m striving for caution here, but I definitely hope it isn’t needed. The thing is, even if you aren’t planning to crash your car, you wear a seatbelt. If you’re a passenger in a car, wearing a seatbelt doesn’t mean you think the driver’s a jerk who’s trying to kill you.

What you say is something I really, really hope to be true. Anyone pick up the Homeworld remake? When those assets were sold, a whooooooole lotta people - myself included - kinda went o.O at this unexpected plot twist.

And you know what? It turns out they really did love the game as much as {random sampling of other old gamers} and the remake is a beautiful thing, keeping intact everything important about the experience, like the original VAs and the story.

Master of Orion is also in development, and look who owns that. So far, it looks like they’re a bunch of old fans of the original two (ahem) games, and the new one looks promising so far (yes, the point of contention being the realtime combat, but having played old and new I think they might be on to something, provided it develops further).

So there is certainly every possibility that Riot just thinks this is a super cool side project to let grow on its own while they acquire the assets they were really interested in.

If, however, that is the case - again, seatbelts - it means nothing if Riot is sold, or something happens to their priorities, or a dozen other scenarios where current Riot leadership is no longer in a position to protect Radiant’s development of Stonehearth. It is also for these very real considerations that Radiant needs some kind of protection. Not from Riot, per se - just from the realities of business.

<3 guys.

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Personally, I’m going to call this the death of Stonehearth. It’s basically going to be another Freelancer (if anyone remembers that game). As stated before, League of Legends used to be a good game with a good community, much like we have here. Then everything went south and stayed there.

So I ask, how long till Riot takes over these boards, flooding them with mindless, toxic players, all in the hopes of making an extra penny? How long till us backers are cheated out of what we were promised? How long till this game turns into almost EVERY other game they own is, and is a micro transaction hell?

My heart honestly sinks with this, and even though I understand that business is business, I feel a little insulted as a supporting member, that the game was bought out, especially by Riot of all people.

I mean, if Stonehearth is to remain seperate, and they have no reason to mess with it, only wanting your other game, then why wasn’t the studio separated into individual studios and sold as such? That tells me that they DO have interest in Stonehearth, and thus, we will see it fall…

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They probably can’t comment on this, but it can get messy. Not bad messy, just lots of approvals and more paperwork for everyone. It depends on a given holding company’s chain of command, but in general:

  • It is highly likely that the top-tier owner must directly approve purchases (or sales) of major assets
  • Middle-tier would most likely have proposed the acquisition, presented their case to senior management, and gotten approval to move forward with an offer / negotiations / calling Tom and asking him to lunch.
  • Middle tier - Riot in this case - would most likely be the direct negotiators with the targeted asset - Radiant. It would be a rare kind of micromanager to jump into the middle of an approved action - not unheard of, but not very likely.
  • Middle tier would go back to top tier with hard numbers on what exactly they’re getting into. Here’s the finances of Radiant, here’s their assets, here’s why we want this, here’s how far along it is, here’s the resumes of their team.
  • Top tier provides Go or No-Go at this point.

Obviously we’re at Go or we’d never have heard of it. This is a broad generalization, and the specifics could be similar, or wildly different, but that’s a typical flow of this sort of thing. It’s rare that either party would be free to comment publicly on the specifics, so I hope that provides an image of the basic idea.

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Plot Twist: Radiant is actually super rich and they bought Riot Games :open_mouth:

I’ll leave now

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Just to be clear, I’m not trying to persuade people those things are true or probable (or otherwise). I haven’t even been around long enough to have an informed opinion of point 1, and would be suspicious of anyone claiming such of 2 or 3.

Rather, my point was to combat what seem to be common assumptions when things go bad following an acquisition or such:

  1. Everything was “smiles and rainbows” beforehand.
  2. The acquisition itself was the turning point.
  3. The “acquirers” are solely responsible for the outcome.

This bears repeating, because it seems a lot of people expect a great deal more disclosure than is likely forthcoming.

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Congratulations to Team Radiant on this pretty huge achievement.
There are many voices raising concern in regards to rights and ownership and what that means for the future.

At this point in time even if Stonehearth is not done yet Radiant has provided us with a very good amount of entertainment by involving us in the process. For the people that would like to just chuck out money and get a finished product this might be irrelevant and uninteresting, but on the other hand Kickstarter is not a place to “buy” products for such type of people anyway.

With that I want to say that I feel like I already got my moneys worth out of the deal, even if there is no finished game yet, just by being involved in the development process.
Seeing that Tom and Tony are industry veterans I trust them to not trust a business partner too easily, so I am quite sure that Radiant won’t be stolen blind by Riot. Even if that happens I as customer won’t have lost too much, so I would be much sadder for Team Radiant than for myself.

I was pretty sure going on Steam that early would not work out well and I must admit that I am surprised on how well it worked out, so yes I am trusting Radiant very much to make smart decisions.

Eh well, just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here :slight_smile:

@SachielMF Thanks for the correction :stuck_out_tongue:

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They’re the Tony brothers, Tony Tony and Tom Tony a.k.a. “The Turkletons”. Kidding ;). The actual names are Tom and Tony Cannon. (hope this doesn’t come off as harsh as it might, just found it funny)

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I feel a cancelled project coming in… I am sorry but I do not trust companies like riot or tencent who create some of the worst nickel and dime games while combining it with incredibly toxic communities.

It is a real shame, stonehearth has so much potential but in the end it’s always money > quality and freedom.

We will see what happens but I am not getting my hopes up.

That being said if the game gets canceled will people get a refund?

Again sorry for being pessimistic but I think we have all seen what generally happens.

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Right, in this sense good business acumen would mean having a crack legal team oversee the process. I have to assume this, at least, is true. Anyone who thinks they could handle a process like this on their own… I have a bridge to sell you. :wink:

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Im highly concerned about this, an acquisition just doesnt happen, and League of Legends is just a cash cow by now, how do we as a community rest assured that we wont have to pay $0,99 every time i need a hearthling down the line?

PS: how informed was the community on this? I dont see to much info on it

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I’m not concerned, team radiant entertained me more since my KS pledge than most of the AAA titles of the last years so I think the money was well spent.

I’m looking forward to another great year full of livestreams, desktop tuesdays and Alpha releases :smiley:

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