Desktop Tuesday: Exploration Prototype 1

The real problem in my opinion is with how you are introduced to the map and choose your starting location. maybe it would be more fun it was designed so that you got certain things at your starting location but can find a map later. I think why this would be more interesting is because showing the player the map at the beginning ruins any kind of exploration potential the game has unless you go with a hand drawn likeness of the actual map that is more vague.

alternatively, if you don’t want to get rid of the map introduction completely, simply generate a much smaller map that is visible to the player with interesting terrain/biome/plants/water/animal features. it may be a good idea to introduce hand crafted starting maps and then allow the player to explore the randomly generated world when they feel up to it. so the map you choose at the start will basically depend on the game mode you are going for. this would put the choice with the player, and I like that.

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That’s not what I said – what I said was that games are bound to fail when their developers abandon their planning and follow the whims of the crowd.

Godus hit that point when its developers realised that they weren’t going to get the support (financial and otherwise) they needed to keep making the game they first pitched; they tried some desperate measures to correct the spiral but those desperate measures didn’t work. Before the desperate measures were activated there was a chance of recovery, but after that button was pressed there was basically no chance.

I don’t know enough about Star Citizen to comment on that one…

The thing here is that you’re not questioning the experiment, you’re decrying it. You’re acting like these internal tests are proof-positive of chaos taking over Stonehearth’s development, which is very clearly not what’s happening at all. The dev team aren’t flailing around in the dark hoping to stumble onto something that works; they’re testing out specific variables in a way that only requires a tiny amount of time compared to building fully-realised systems on the hope they’ll work as intended. This is the opposite of chaos, it’s a very calculated move to weigh up the pros and cons of a couple of different options before they have to commit to any of them. It’s the exact opposite of Godus’ “throw all the eggs in one basket and hope it survives the coming impact” approach.

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I am decrying the assumption that any game will be great given enough time and money.

I’m sure experimenting to see how best to achieve objectives is a great idea, I’m just not sure that StoneHearth devs know their objectives.

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In that case, you’re decrying an argument that nobody has tried to make here, and you’re also arguing something which is pretty much contrary to everything the devs have said on the matter.

The objectives of the current development stage, as stated recently by @sdee and @Brackhar, are to:

  • make the player feel more invested in their town, so that the stories of individual hearthlings matter more to us and we have a deeper sense of engagement with the game (and, consequently, a deeper sense of satisfaction from it). We’ve seen this directly in the additions to hearthling personality via traits and conversations, and less directly in the recent experiments around exporation – which, I repeat, are not focussed on answering the question “is this the way we should build the game from now on?”, the questions being tested are “is Stonehearth more engaging when the progression requires more effort?” and “does Fog of War make the game more interesting/tense/surprising?” (the answers, BTW, are looking very much like “yes” and “yes”, so we can expect to see development focus in on these paths as the devs test out ways to bring the challenge while maintaining the fun, and mechanics for FoW which work nicely with existing content and add to the storybook feel.)
  • nail down the art direction to create a strong visual language for the game. This was mostly centered on the light and darkness concept work @Allie did a couple of months ago, but it’s ongoing.
  • make building more engaging, more intuitive, and more rewarding; and to support that make the building editor more powerful as well as easier to use. We’ve seen a lot of the rough experimental prototypes of that push, and it’s been a chance for players to give input on which features are more valuable/desired and which are less of a priority.
  • figure out how exploration, multiplayer and the “wider world of Hearth” will expand out from the current game, so that these areas create a cohesive experience rather than feeling bolted on. We haven’t seen much of that, although we did get a peek at the rough test for multi-biome worlds; but discussion continues both within the dev team and right here on discourse (@Brackhar has posed a couple of question threads recently along those roads to get our input)
  • shore up the code-base, particularly around water and buildings but various other areas have been touched on recently (of particular note would also be hotkeys, UI controllers and the pathfinding service.) This sort of work is ongoing, but new features generally lead to some work being done on older systems where it’s needed.

That’s a bunch of clear goals, which are visibly being worked on right now or have been recently ticked off the to-do list. And each of those goals is a step between the Stonehearth we currently play and the envisioned final product – the devs aren’t picking these tasks because they’re low-hanging fruit, they’re each and all essential steps towards what we want to see from the final game.

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This statement has bothered me for a couple days, and I finally want to address it. With a statement like this, it translates to me that we shouldn’t naysay until it becomes the game. So what do we do at that point? When those of us that were against an idea that was implemented, and we said it was a bad idea and are now being told too bad, what do we do then?

This just adds to further my statement that no one is allowed to disagree with something on this forum. If you do, it’s greeted with:

  • You don’t know what the end product will be.
  • Well it may be bad now, but it will get better later.
  • This is just the new direction they want to go.

Or some combination of those. And when enough people get behind the same idea, they get grouped and shunned basically. My example of this is the Kickstarter backers; how many times now has it been said across multiple posts that the Backers need to stop complaining that this game isn’t what they backed? You even said it here.

So since yourself and so many other people want to “white knight” the developers and be overly optimistic about the development, how does someone speak against their direction without being told indirectly to shut up?

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My example of this is the Kickstarter backers; how many times now has it been said across multiple posts that the Backers need to stop complaining that this game isn’t what they backed? You even said it here.

I backed.

Sure, sometimes even I get a bit impatient, but I also recognize that they’re doing something that’s never been attempted before, with (probably) good reason. No, really. This whole block by block thing is crazy! Insane! Should never be attempted! Good lord they wrote their own engine! They’re nuts!

But darn if I haven’t fallen for this stupid game and its intrepid crew.

I guess I spent a lot of time looking at the people who are making the game and this really is a reflection of them. But it’s also a reflection of those who have been here cheering them on. I mean look at all the mods we have already. How many times have members of the team said “I want that for the game” or just been in awe of what people have built

I mean, you don’t /have/ to allow players to design their own building or be able to do more than make a box, put another box on and slap a roof on top. You could just put your head down, plow through and make what’s on the concept art – preset, easy models that we can put down that always build but are undeniably boring after a while.

The same thing could be said with the Hearthlings. Send in the cute little automatons to fight adorable enemies when necessary, differentiated only by the clothes of their class. That’s been done. It’s called a flash game.

I love the personalities! Sure you get to pick the original 6 but after that, you get what you get. This may be a 3/4/3 who tends to be a bit on the moody side but also really wants to be a weaver. Do you make him happy and let him be a weaver or do you throw him in the militia because you can’t seem to get anyone without more than a 1 or 2 for body? That pack of kobold wolves looking mighty hungry there.

I like the talisman/light gatekeeping idea and fog of war integration concept. I think something of the sort is needed and necessary to push the game further and give that sense of exploration that’s in the Zombies Among the Cattails concept art. You know the one. I hope to one day see my Hearthlings come back to a parade when they retrieve the fabled Golden Axe of Sion the Bold or celebrate some other holiday with a huge feast. “Oh no! We can’t have Spring Runnen without lamb and carrots! The spirits of the bunny folk will curse our crops!”

Anyhow I’ve rambled too long. I backed. I like the game. I like the devs. I like where they’re going with the game. I can’t wait to see what’s next.

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It’s not optimism which drives me to argue this point, it’s actually a deeply-rooted cynicism about both the nature of people, and the nature of gamedev (particularly Early Access.) I don’t want to drag the tone down too much here, but I can summarise my views this way:

“The more rapidly that people invest in the creation of a product/goal they have no direct influence over, the less satisfied they’re doomed to be when they finally receive it. The more that people band together to expedite said product/goal, the less and less helpful they become.”

You’ll notice this applies only to the people who don’t have direct influence over the product – aka the supporters, the backers, the people who want it and who are prepared to supply funds and ideas but who aren’t directly working on it. Obviously the same is not true for the actual dev team, in fact the rule runs basically opposite for the direct creators of the product. But for other stakeholders who spend a lot of the time waiting and watching but not much time directly contributing, the road stretches long into the distance and there isn’t much to do while watching and waiting. This leads to impatience, and impatience is anathema to game development.

The other key point of the “rule”, though, is that it deals in relatives not absolutes. So it’s not to say that backers and supporters investing in the game is a bad thing; rather, it’s hasty investment which leads to broken dreams (that are oft-misconstrued as broken promises.) People tend to see a proposal/pitch and decide then-and-there that they want to support the game based on that pitch, without understanding that the very nature of a pitch is transient. It’s ironic, many other homonyms of “pitch” (e.g. the sticky tar substance, or the playing field) refer to something which is resistant to change, and the idea of a marriage proposal is that it’s the start of something which should last forever. But when we talk about pitching or proposing an idea, we need to understand that ideas change, and they do it quite readily. If we keep that in mind, it has a tempering effect on the excitement generated by the pitch; but it means that any pitches we do decide to back we’re choosing to back because of an abiding merit rather than a flare of excitement.

Now, none of that is to say/assume you chose to back Stonehearth on a whim; I’m talking in generalities about what I’ve seen in the Early Access marketplace before. However, I would bet quite a lot that even if you did thorough research and “due diligence” before investing in Stonehearth, the first thoughts which spring to mind when you think of the project are the first impressions you got from the kicksarter video. And the reason I’m so confident about that is because it’s _entirely normal behaviour for human beings._Our first impressions don’t get replaced by later impressions, and they’re tenacious enough that they keep showing up in our thinking even when we have good evidence that they’re no longer accurate. This is a negative for both the consumer and the developer – for the consumer because it means we’re more likely to pin our hopes on something out-of-date and impossible to realise, and for the developer because it means that a negative first impression is extremely difficult to change.

So, I’m going to assert that your idea of Stonehearth is probably still based on those early images, and that those images are still the lens through which you view the more recent dev work. Viewing the work through that lens, it’s hard to see how the two images fit together – I know this because I’ve tried looking through that lens myself, and I didn’t like what I saw. It wasn’t until I stepped back and borrowed the perspective offered by the Desktop Tuesday article on the new roadmap that I started to see something I liked again. There was a time several months ago where I was fairly quiet around the forums – shocking, I know – and that was because I didn’t have anything constructive to add to the discussions at the time. I had opinions, sure, but I couldn’t see any way to voice them in a way that added to the conversation; everything I tried to write only contradicted the previous statements or led to a paradox (e.g. “we need to see how X turns out before we can talk about Y, but X can’t happen just yet and the idea for Y is my proposal for a stop-gap in lieu of X.”) At that time, I was starting to worry about Stonehearth too – not about it’s direction exactly, but about whether it could survive the length of the journey ahead of it (this was also, of course, the same time that we saw a serious dissatisfaction with the rate of progress.) Even though I knew that the devs had more going on in the background than they were able to show, I worried that when the reveal came it might be too little, too late.

I know what it’s like to be dissatisfied with how a game is turning out, I know how terrible it feels particularly when you can’t just step in and provide a solution which seems so simple and obvious from your perspective. And, for what it’s worth, I know that sometimes those simple and obvious solutions actually would make the difference, I’ve seen it happen before and I’m sure it’ll happen with Stonehearth before we’re all done here. However, the thing I’ve learned the hard way through that process is that it doesn’t matter how satisfied or dissatisfied you are with the game, all you can do is either add to it’s progress, or take away from it. Every action you make as a backer is either going to provide further support, or run in a different direction to the main push. Sometimes we need pioneers to run in a slightly different direction and open up a new path to us; but that job falls to the dev team 90% of the time, and most of the time when we do it as backers we don’t actually find a new path worth taking.

Whenever we suggest new paths to take, we call out to other backers to join us – it’s simply the nature of the forum environment. However, the thing to be aware of with that is that those backers are presumably aiding the main push before they peel off to explore the side-path we’ve pointed out. If too many peel off from the main push, it becomes hard to communicate with everyone at once. The devs have to keep their focus on the main push, so the backers and players who are off exploring alternatives will often feel like they’re recieving less attention – and the sad reality is that they necessarily are, because the dev team simply can’t be everywhere at once.

So, if the path that the main push is on doesn’t look like the best one from your perspective, it’s usually much better to talk to a dev directly – i.e. go to them instead of asking them to come to you – and show them the issue you’re seeing from your perspective. That means more than just pointing out the issue, it means pointing out the context which makes it an issue, and what you’d consider a happy resolution to it. Now, I’ll give credit where it’s due here, because I’ve seen you do that before; but it’s not something you always do. It’s also very easy to slip between giving your full perspective and giving the more direct “this is the problem, here is the solution” statements… again, it’s something I do a lot! However, another thing I’ve learned the hard way is that it’s all too easy in that frame of mind to forget that other people reading it probably don’t share the same perspective, so what looks like a clear and obvious solution to you may not make sense as a solution to them, or it may look like a viable solution but a really terrible alternative to the current plan.

There’s a lot of threads flying loose in this post so I’ll try to wrap them up before I get tangled in them, hahaha! My core point here is that disagreeing with the main push of the development cycle generally isn’t as productive as it seems it would be – and not for lack of good intentions; simply because a game-in-progress is an unwieldy thing to try and steer, so trying to change direction mid-push is generally a really risky move. There needs to be a massive, literally game changing benefit if the devs are even going to consider that; and if they’re going to consider it, then the suggestion needs to be based on more than a “negative assertion” (e.g. “I don’t like the way this is going, how about we change it?”) If you can suggest a positive change with clear steps and a visible end-point, it may gain some traction; but simply going against the main direction will only take traction away from the work currently in progress.

That’s why I only post “in line with” the current direction of the game – I haven’t come up with any better ideas, and while I do have some things I’d like to see more than what’s currently in progress, it’s not worth risking the progress we’ve made so far to try and push for those things I want. That’s something I’ve seen happen time and again – the worst case scenario isn’t just the game suffering, it’s that someone can kick up enough of a stink that they get what they ask for but it’s still not satisfying because the rest of the game has suffered, and so everyone misses out. And I know from painful experience that when that happens, it’s not because of people being complete assholes; it’s a lot of minor actions piling up and creating a precedent, which then becomes a norm, and so it ends up with a bunch of people pulling in different directions until someone finally gets their way – and then everyone collapses like a giant tug-o-war because after so long pulling against each other, they’ve forgotten how to stand on their own.

When we pull in the same direction, if one person falls the rest will drag them back up. When we pull in different directions, someone falling can collapse the whole group. And in this case, “falling” can simply mean running out of patience – I’ve seen that happen more times than I like to count.

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Reminds me when the game Spore was released. It was a good game, but not the quite the game that I had hoped for or was originally shown. Think EA decided to change the original idea after they bought Maxis.

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Spore had an issue with changing the entire gameplay once you went to space though, that seemed to be it’s real downfall. I think i would have really loved it if the core gameplay hadn’t changed so jarringly.

I get the point you’re making though, but I don’t think we have to worry about the SPECIFIC reason spore fell flat towards the end. Unless the devs turn the game into an FPS for the end of the game. haha. (oh god please don’t let this happen)

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HOBA! Especially with @Rabid_Llama now on the team, it’s going to become a HOBA!

Sorry. I’ll stop now. Maybe…

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Nice callback, good sir. Well done. :rofl:

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@YetiChow

I didn’t read the whole post, but are you suggesting that if you crowdfund, you should hand over the money and just walk away?

I’ve learnt a whole lot about what I should back on KickStarter. Currently, pretty much nothing.

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Sorry to hear that :(. So far i’m 3/3 on successful game kickstarters/early access, not including the TBD Stonehearth. So i’ve had the opposite experience.

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I’ve backed over 200 projects on kickstarter. Most have gotten delivered, still waiting on a lot but with regular updates, some take years to complete even after the estimated date. Some games I’m just waiting on the next wave(s), some due to production time, 1 from lack of funds for shipping the games (due to shipping costing more than they originally had estimated), and 1 from the company in the process of changing hands. So far only 1 I can think of hasn’t really delivered and it’s a solo game developer creating a game that was possibly beyond his ability, game called Topia Online, later changed to just Topia (not to be confused with other games of the same name). We got a small sample of the game a while back before it was taken down. Heard he tends to go radio silent for a year or so while working on the game. If he does come back with a working game someday then great, but if that never happens then I’m out about $250. I’ve spent more than twice that on some other games where I have received the game.

So all in all I’m satisfied with my kickstarter pledges.

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No, I’m suggesting that if you hand over the money to back something in its very early stages, you should do so only if you’re prepared to accept an end-product which is radically different from what was pitched. If you want surety of what you’re getting, wait until a week before the release, or better yet, a couple of months after release so there’s time for post-update patches to kick in (since they’re an unfortunate inevitability these days.) If the project does start heading away from where you’d like to see it go, that’s definitely a good time to walk away from it though – by all means come back in a few months’ time or a year’s time and see how things have changed, but trying to fight a change that the devs have decided on does not generally end well for anyone. In my experience, it’s extremely rare for an unpopular change to be successfully reverted; but I’ve seen a lot of unpopular mechanics being replaced with more popular alternatives when players/backers suggest a positive change with clear goals and methods rather than simply nay-saying the new content. A great example of that in progress is the game Black Ice, which has been in Early Access for a few years now and currently looks very different to the alpha version I bought into – but it feels largely consistent with what was pitched, and the areas which have changed from the original pitch have changed for the better as the game has evolved to allow new content which didn’t look possible in the original pitch.

The fact that games change between their pitch and their gold release is nothing new, it’s been happening since the first pre-order for a game happened, long before Early Access existed. Anyone who wasn’t aware of that reality simply wasn’t paying attention.

Now, team Stonehearth are putting a lot of effort into ensuring that the final game we all get to play will match the spirit of the kickstarter even though it’s turned out that some of the specific ideas (e.g. the infinite world) probably won’t be feasible to support. However, I’m not even going to declare that idea to be dead and buried yet, I’ve seen stranger and more complex features make their way into a game even when they’ve been called impossible (or more commonly “not worth the effort”) by the developers in the past. I honestly don’t expect it to still happen, but my point is that we can’t be certain – the devs are looking into how they might load the map differently, it may turn out that some coming piece of tech enables unexpected new options. Again, it goes back to the way that games aren’t just built according to set instructions, they evolve as the pieces are added together.

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The funny thing is, that was exactly how I felt when Starcraft 2 was released. It was advertised as a “revolutionary” game. What we got instead was a better Warcraft 3, a game released more than a decade ago. Most of the “revolutionary” things advertised in trailers were stripped away in the release, the main plot being a big BOOM but having no substance - something I was expecting from the sequel. In the end of my review I intuitively understood that sentiment, writing that “on a second walkthrough the game looks better because you don’t expect much anymore” and “it’s main problem is that it’s not good enough”.

A revelation one of my friends gave me. “Things you deem obvious are not always obvious to everyone.”
Another revelation said that “Common sense is not invariant.”
Knowing this often makes rereading your own old internet conversations a great lots of fun.

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TLDR

if you want to make the game better post suggestions and criticisms.
don’t be mad when the game isn’t what you thought it would be when you bought it, if you didn’t actually give any good feedback to steer the game in the direction you would like to see it go

also HOBA

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Ah, now we do agree. This is why I’ve pretty much stopped backing video game KickStarters. I didn’t know that I had to pay attention to what devs pitched and try to guess who knew what they were talking about and who didn’t.

I know now.

My KickStarter experience has been rather coloured by my strange and awful preference for macOS. You’d be surprised (or perhaps not) by how often one of the chief victims of a KickStarter has been the others platform versions, how often the money I intended to support the macOS version ends up supporting the Windows version.

Perhaps the worst example was Kingdom Come: Deliverence. Pitched with simultaneous Windows, Linux and macOS development, reality appears to be late delivery (hmmm) with simultaneous launch on Windows, XBox and PS4, with no prospect of Linux and macOS. Warhorse at least had a no quibble refund policy for the Linux and macOS versions.

Underworld Ascendency has recently decided that they’re going to drop the development versions for macOS/Linux despite backers having paid the extra cash for them. No regret, no apology, it’s just more efficient (apparently).

There have been shining lights in the darkness. Chaos Reborn stuck to its pitched development plans, supporting the triumvirate all the way through development. It also has been delivered as pitched with additional features and options. Perhaps not a surprise as Julian Gollop, the studio lead, has been producing games since the 80s.

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In a list of planned features that I remember from quite a while ago there were dwarves included. Maybe exploration could go under ground and have a collapsed enterance on a cliff side that would lead to a tunnel with several rooms that contain chests with loot? It could be cut off not deep in, so that only a small set of structures has to be generated, but at least it would add a tiny step towards that planned feature as well as expand on the idea of exploration and getting loot from the environment.

It does not even require any dwarves to be put in the game, but just a simple “hobbit hole” kind of stone structure with a reason to dig into the wall of a cliffside.

You obviously chose … wisely :slightly_smiling_face:

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