A24.2 feedback thread

What is the purpose of banners?

There is a lot of potential for this banners mechanic to emphasize the uniqueness of a town. There should not be several bonuses bundled into three distinct choices. While this might seem like it’s allowing players to focus on different town types, I think this bonus structure is attempting to pre-imagine the three types of towns people will want to create.

What If i wanted my town to be a beautiful agrarian town, with fine cooks that export delicacies to greater hearth? The “vitality” banner seems like it’s intended to fit that, but in reality all those spread out farms actually benefit MORE from the road speed bonus and the sell value of the “cunning” banner.

If I wanted to create a militaristic mountain dwelling people, exporting intricate stoneworks and the highest quality weapons and armor, I’m likely to have settled as high up in the mountains as I can get away with, where arable land is limited, and might really like to have the faster plant growth. Faster wood production to fuel the fires of the blacksmith would be nice too.

Overall, I like the idea that your town can be personalized with some bonuses (and you can’t get them all!), but a greater number of smaller bonuses, and the ability to chose more of them, would actually allow the towns to be personalized meaningfully. Say 20 bonuses, and you can get up to 4 or 5 of them for example. Just a few things i can think of… (edited after a bit more thinking)


Lets call them "Banner Virtues"

Virtue Bonus description Describing Adjective
Courage Bonuses from armor increased Courageous
Bravery Bonuses from weapons increased Brave
Enthusiasm All Hearthlings gain road speed bonus even when not on road Enthusiastic
Beauty Appeal of stone, cloth, and clay furniture and decorations increased Beautiful
Nature Appeal of plants, crops, trees, and wood decorations increased Natural
Prestige Appeal of trophies and monuments increased greatly Prestigious
Gallantry Attitude bonuses from combat thoughts increased, penalties reduced Gallant
Generosity Attitude bonuses from eating tasty food increased, sale price increased Generous
Creativity Attitude bonuses from crafting thoughts increased Creative
Kindness Attitude bonuses from social thoughts increased Kind
Mindfulness Mind stat of all hearthlings increased (by 1?) Mindful
Tenacity Body stat of all hearthlings increased (by 1?) Tenacious
Spirit Spirit stat of all hearthlings increased (by 1?) Spiritual
Excellence Sale price of higher quality items increased Excellent
Fertility Perks for producers strengthened (farmer, trapper, shepherd) Fertile
Industriousness Increase stone, timber, clay, and ore yields. Industrial

One of the key mechanics to use for town customization is to amplify the happiness and attitude effects of things that make your town a little special. So, a significant number of good ones I can think of are related to happiness.

The mechanic for adding more virtues to your town could center around a towns actual banner, which has space for a few symbols of virtue, and events allow you to add new symbols to your banner, that establishes the towns identity in a very customized way. Clicking on the town banner could open a special menu for this, where your banner can be visualized. You could add requirements to adopt each virtue, or make the advancement simple and incremental, or perhaps tie it to the township quest line directly. This banner could feature prominently in your game saves as a way to identify the town as well.

Maybe this is more detail than some players want, but I can already think of several fun combinations of these banner virtues to try out.

4 Likes

The thing is, I’m not really motivated to play each city differently. Give it some time, and everyone will have their own favorite choice and will stick to that one throughout every single play.

If what you say about the unlocking more than one banner buff means that the choice is simply to pick the starting buff, and throughout the game all of them can be unlocked, then that should be fine.

The party could also challenge the players to satisfy the guests with food/drinks/entertainment. Whereas the boosted productivity is just a random idea I threw on the table, and I’m sure something more interesting could be made.

As for the exclusivity of the hearths… What did you think of my suggestion in the OP where all three could be built in the same town, but only one can be active at a time? This would keep the hearth’s bonus somewhat exclusive still, but at least the players are granted the ability to change their minds.

The choice could be still meaningful though, by making the acquisition of the other two significantly more difficult.

As for keeping “big” content behind choice-walls (legendary weapon and masterwork tier), well, that’s really really not nice. Players who choose one thing might easily regret their choice, and would be disappointed to find there is no way to get the other more interesting thing. Disappointment is never a good thing in a game.

Besides, there’s just really no logical reason why a city powerful enough to acquire the prowess to craft legendary things could not also acquire the ability to craft masterwork things too.

2 Likes

Just my opinion, but unlocking all the buffs in one town sounds very Monty Haul and is gonna affect replayability for some.

So a new game for you will only be necessary 3 times, one for each kingdom (4 with dwarves). Whereas, exclusive buffs would encourage players to try 9-12 different towns, without even taking into consideration mixing and matching across the themes. The more the players play, and experiment, the more comfortable and creative they’ll get. It’ll inspire them further to build towns based off of techniques they just figured out in the last play through.

It’s a matter of not seeing the choice as a limiting factor and more of a nudge to try out different builds. As soon as I saw the options I thought “I’m gonna have to build at least 3 new towns, now which biomes for each one” lol.

I’d rather keep the exclusivity and give some sort of option for a do over if the player isn’t thrilled with their choice. Maybe a free switch for the first one and after that a hefty cost for future changes. Not crazy about having all the banners/hearths/shrines in one town it cheapens the accomplishment and the effect of each.

That being said I found the time between the first and second choice to be very short. It’s no wonder Harold was slobbering all over the second letter. That poor lil guy has been flying his little heart out. When Merl showed up Harold should’ve been resting on his head or something. Oh and I loved the flavor text about Harold as well as the perfect name choice.

3 Likes

My thoughts:

  • Items shouldn’t be locked behind choices, but I’m okay with their crafting being locked behind those choices, at least at first.
  • Maybe merchants could eventually let you unlock some of the recipes for things you can’t get due to your choices as well.
  • I think every tier letting you pick only one option out of three forever isn’t the best way.
  • I’m certainly fine with some exclusive choices, but maybe there should be a tier or tiers that aren’t. Getting to pick another option for a tier should be considerably more expensive/difficult, though.

Agreed that it feels like the second letter comes too soon.

2 Likes

Players experimented and tried different styles without an arbitrary bonus telling them what they should focus on. What I was trying to say is that by locking certain things behind a choice wall, they are tying the players’ hands, and so players won’t be able to incorporate certain things into their experiments, simply because they chose another thing.

Cities are constantly changing things. A city which thrives off mining one day will run out of things to mine, and will have to adapt. Likewise, a small farming town can find itself in a situation where it has to turn into a bastion of warriors to survive.

I’m not entirely against choices, but let players dance back on their choices to some degree without being forced to start over. Let us replace our bonus to something else for a small fee or something, don’t force us to stick with our choice forever!

1 Like

I can not continue to play my savegames because there is something wrong with the gold.
I should probably have a maximum of 2000 gold pieces and not as many as in the picture watch.

Okay, I get what you’re saying. I mean the idea of decorations being locked behind choices did make me a bit sad, cause I have a tendency to snatch every mod with any sort of decorative element lol.

I’m not opposed to the idea of allowing players to re-choose, sometimes a decision isn’t as glamorous as it seems. I just think if the cost is negligible then it’s almost like having all the buffs at once since you can just switch back and forth between them as the situation requires. Maybe a freebie for the first one and then make them progressively more expensive which would be a good gold sink.

If we did get access to all the buffs, I’d definitely recommend the other 2 paths we didn’t choose to give a fraction of their buffs. I also love your idea about unlocking the options the player didn’t choose through quests. That would be another great way of expanding some lore and giving the players other goals to work on.

2 Likes

Just my general feelings since I’m not playing on the unstable branch at the moment. I’m not sure I like the idea of being shoehorned or locked into something simply because of " so you are motivated to build each city you play differently". That being said, I also understand that allowing a city all the bonuses would be cheaty or whatever.

I like flexibility when I play. One of the draws of Stonehearth is that it’s very sandboxy and by forcing players into boxes, you take away the whole sandbox. Surely there can be some compromise where you choose your main path and those bonuses are the strongest but, as others have suggested, a way to unlock other bonuses through quests or something that make you have to work for them (and, honestly, you should have to work for the main bonuses to). Make the secondary and tertiary bonuses less powerful.

Also, maybe offer us a true sandbox mode where we can do whatever we want and use all the buffs or not use any of the buffs, etc. It’s a ‘city builder’/society builder and those are the aspects that drew a lot of people to the game.

3 Likes

New game new error after the third save load comes:
release-798 (x64)[M]
…hearth/components/scaffolding/scaffolding_region.lua:1092: attempt to index field ‘_scaffolding_region’ (a nil value)
stack traceback:
radiant/modules/commons.lua:53: in function ‘report_traceback’
radiant/modules/commons.lua:64: in function <radiant/modules/commons.lua:58>
…hearth/components/scaffolding/scaffolding_region.lua:1092: in function ‘_update_scaffolding_size’
…hearth/components/scaffolding/scaffolding_region.lua:499: in function ‘fn’
radiant/modules/events.lua:288: in function <radiant/modules/events.lua:285>
[C]: in function ‘xpcall’
radiant/modules/commons.lua:73: in function ‘xpcall’
radiant/modules/events.lua:285: in function ‘trigger’
radiant/modules/events.lua:374: in function ‘_fire_async_triggers’
radiant/modules/events.lua:449: in function ‘_update’
radiant/server.lua:67: in function <radiant/server.lua:64>

My bug arises when I create houses of blueprints.
I now test whether it happens with newly created buildings.

I don’t think, at least for the initial banner choice, that you should be able to change it. If you do, only early in game. That is because the banners nudge you to design your towns differently. A town with road buffs will make more use of roads. If you change that in the middle of your game, you need to deal with all the changes that brings (which, now I think of it, could be a good price to pay for it, although it is very uncontrollable from a design standpoint. Maybe that does change my mind.). Instead, maybe in tier three we get the option of making more banners, details are as follows:

  • Your original banner ‘upgrades’ to a bigger, more permanent monument (as I’ve suggested before).
  • You can have the ability to have multiple different banners, as well as their buffs.
  • Since the magic responsible for the buffs comes from the banners (from what I’ve heard), having mutiple banners that you can place around your city will create sectors. In each sector (area around banner), there will be different buffs. By placing these banners however you want, you create your sector layout, so no boxing in there.

This creates the gameflow where you first focus on one aspect a city can excell at, then you grow and can handle more things at a time, so you create sectors which are catered to their prupose within the town. It further expands the gameplay beyond tier three, because it opens up alot of things you can still do.

Then for things like items being locked behind choice, you can have traders sell them to you, you can get hearthlings with the skills necessary to make certain crafts. If all cities would get all of these, you wouldn’t have to choose. However, if the game tracks the general type of city you are, the game can change the chances that you get these things based on that. That would work out to a system where you can get everything, but certain things are more likely in certain towns.

2 Likes

For new buildings or the official buildings, the bug does not occur.

So here’s what the main menu looks like if you save before naming your town, in case anyone was wondering:

…the town titles probably need to change.

1 Like

I think item exclusivity for different paths of gameplay is a good thing, HOWEVER the other exclusive things the player doesn’t get access to by making a choice, they should be able to appear as expensive tradeable items or similar.

Also again I think smaller incremental effects/buffs but more player choice is a better design than fewer and larger choices. Will give the player more feeling of agency and the ability to better customise their experience.

3 Likes

Why has the right-mouse button click to buy or sell from merchant been removed in 24.2?

I use it a lot but seems to be removed for Merchants but it’s still possible to do for crafting items

1 Like

When I read this it kinda reminded me of the roman flags and the eagle standards.

  1. First upgrade would allow you to choose one small choice of buffs and add the image to the banner
  2. Second upgrade would involve another selection of buffs as well as adding a figure head to the banner based off the image of the corresponding flag. :slight_smile:
5 Likes

what is this a mistake where does it come from?

release-798 (x64)[M]
CHECK failed: C:\rb\ihome\root\SH-OB0-BUILD\stonehearth\source\lib\lua\ai\compound_action.cpp:357 Thinking flag unset while restarting thinking.
stack traceback:
radiant/modules/commons.lua:53: in function ‘report_traceback’
radiant/modules/commons.lua:64: in function <radiant/modules/commons.lua:58>
[C]: in function ‘clear_think_output’
…th/ai/actions/find_best_reachable_entity_by_type.lua:140: in function ‘_set_result’
…th/ai/actions/find_best_reachable_entity_by_type.lua:76: in function ‘found_cb’
stonehearth/components/item_finder/item_search.lua:169: in function ‘_call_found_cb’
stonehearth/components/item_finder/item_search.lua:187: in function ‘_call_found_cbs’
stonehearth/components/item_finder/item_search.lua:156: in function ‘_on_leased_solution_ready’
stonehearth/components/item_finder/item_search.lua:117: in function ‘instance’
radiant/modules/events.lua:291: in function <radiant/modules/events.lua:285>
[C]: in function ‘xpcall’
radiant/modules/commons.lua:73: in function ‘xpcall’
radiant/modules/events.lua:285: in function ‘trigger’
radiant/modules/events.lua:374: in function ‘_fire_async_triggers’
radiant/modules/events.lua:449: in function ‘_update’
radiant/server.lua:67: in function <radiant/server.lua:64>

Can we get an estimate on an optimisation pass on the game? I really want to play lots of Stonehearth but having idle-rot set in at 14 hearthlings makes me very sad :frowning:

1 Like

I’ve done more pondering on the bonuses. Choosing your path is meant to set a course for your town to be more economically productive, militarily proud or just a better place to live in. Instead of bonuses that just change the way you build your town, bonuses that other town types might still want, you could make bonuses that make a certain playestyle easier, but also more necessary. The net effect is that no town gains an advantage in how easy the game is, but the choice nudged the game’s mechanics a little to a different aspect. Here is an example of what I mean:

When you get really big, the monsters come at you in armies that require you to have chosen the military path.
If you did, then you might have wanted to build a castle and see the enemies try to attack it. You’ll be well equipped for the job, especially given the bonuses you chose, which help you with it.
But what if you didn’t, and you chose to pursue an economic town. In that case you need to use what you are good at (economic value) to get rid of the mosters. You could buy them off, or you could pay military towns to send patrols around the woods just outside of the map, to keep the number of enemies slipping through down. A “hearth of cheer” town might need to entice a patrol to guard them using good living conditions. Then a guarding shift becomes like a vacation, it’s good to go on once in a while, but it’s not home.

Doing it this way gives you extra abilities to be better at a certain aspect, but also requires you to use that advantage to overcome your shortcomings, so the net advantage is zero. The only thing you have done, then, is nudge the game’s mechanics to a certain playstyle that belongs to the town you want to create.

Edit: Maybe this is obvious, but a positve side effect of this, is that you allow the multiple playstyles that you find throughout the player base to come more to the foreground, so there is some for everybody.

4 Likes

I’m not the war player. I prefer to build and enjoy. Without the enemies i will miss something. That’s why I use the easy mod and have him again reinforced by the Facktor 2.